Findings concerning Mr Laski personally
181 These findings are relevant not only to the penalties I propose to impose on Mr Laski personally, but also to the other relief I propose to grant. In particular, the relief relating to disqualification as a director, the mandatory injunction concerning the proceeds of sale from the Brighton property, and other injunctive relief.
182 Despite giving evidence in person for some time, and filing a number of affidavits, Mr Laski expressed no contrition for what he had done, and what he had caused Clinica to do. As a party to the proceeding, he had the opportunity to read the affidavits of Messrs Gill, Azad and Uppal. He expressed no regret for what had happened to those individuals, nor any other clients. He seemed to have no care for or consciousness of the harm inflicted on the lives and hopes of Clinica clients by Clinica's conduct, which was driven by his decision-making. He seemed somewhat outraged that the 10 clients did not accept the work in the abattoir when offered. The self-focus inherent in that reaction was consistent with remainder of his unimpressive behaviour as disclosed by the evidence.
183 The attitude he took in an interview for the ABC television program 7.30 (aired in June 2013) is also revealing. A video excerpt of the program was tendered by the ACCC without objection from the respondent. In that interview, Mr Laski made statements in relation to Clinica's clients who had accepted the abattoir jobs that:
(1) "I don't know if they're Hindus, or Muslims, or what they are, and again, I don't get involved, right? They are offered the position, if they accept the position and then fill out the 32-page application which I have a copy of in the office, uh, they give all their details, they're accepted, they go to work."
(2) "The, uh, advertisements clearly state, one, we're not migration agents. You must come to us with a visa that allows you to work, study, play, do whatever."
(3) "No, I don't mislead them. I mean, they - they play on the fact that, "oh, I don't understand, and I'm from India, and I don't understand", um, you know, that seems to be, uh, group therapy."
(4) "These guys will, um, create all sorts of stories and they'll bring in their mates to support them and sing the same tune. And 9 out of 10 they're people that have either been, um, defaulted on their payments, or been knocked back for a visa, or haven't told me the truth and I find out later that their documentation's not right."
184 Of course, the whole point of the Clinica program was to secure its clients a visa, contrary to the second comment by Mr Laski. The contemptuous and stereotypical nature of the remainder of these comments is consistent with the disregard for the truth frequently exhibited by Mr Laski, and with his apparent lack of concern for the effects of this scheme on Clinica's clients.
185 Contrary to the respondents' submissions, in my opinion Mr Laski did "mastermind" the Clinica program. That conclusion is inescapable from the evidence: there was a deliberate plan to advertise and market a particular product, with key components, to a particular kind of consumer - those in need of training and employment leading to permanent residence visas. It is difficult to see who else could be said to have conceived and organised the scheme if it was not Mr Laski. In his affidavit of 28 September 2015, Mr Laski deposed to being the person "responsible for making decisions on a day-to-day basis about Clinica's business activities". He also deposed to being responsible for approving Clinica's advertisements on trains and in newspapers. While there are some aspects of Mr Laski's evidence which seek to suggest that he was misled by Mr Palmer and pursued Mr Palmer to try to correct the situation, including by attempting to secure the jobs he asserts Mr Palmer promised, the evidence is sparse at best about what attempts Mr Laski actually made, aside from some enquiries which he deposed ultimately led to the abattoir jobs for some 10 Clinica clients. That hardly represents much of an effort when Clinica was signing a much larger number of clients up to pay between $30,000 and $40,000 and continued to do so when there was no change to the situation Mr Laski asserted he was complaining about.
186 Rather, in my opinion Mr Laski was unconcerned about whether Clinica clients would in fact secure the jobs and visas Clinica had represented they could receive: he was interested in who would pay money for this recruitment scheme, and how much money he could make from it. Once the scheme began, in my opinion the most that can be said about Mr Laski's "efforts" (whether with Mr Palmer or anyone else) is that he made meagre attempts to see if Clinica's clients could get employment of some kind, any kind would do, so that (wrongfully) he could continue to assert Clinica's entitlement to be paid all monies under the regional sponsorship agreements.
187 I find Mr Laski was aware of the "hook" for people provided by the prospect of a visa, and this was a calculated aspect of the scheme. Mr Laski's evidence shows he knew how to check the Department of Immigration website, he knew to look for regional sponsorship arrangements and to identify a prospective market of people who needed jobs which would lead to visas. I find this was Mr Laski's idea, and so much can be inferred from Mr Laski's previous experience with recruitment consulting.
188 It is appropriate I set out my findings about Mr Laski as a witness, and in respect of the evidence he gave, and the matters upon which he was cross-examined. The opinions I have formed about him have informed my approach to the relief sought by the ACCC, the predominant conclusion being that I do not accept any of his evidence that tends to be exculpatory or proffered in mitigation.
189 Considering his evidence about duties of trustees and directors, the purchase of the Brighton property, his ex-wife's interests in that property, and his evidence about the arrangements of the corporations in which he had an interest, I find that Mr Laski was careless and apparently relatively disinterested in corporate and financial details, including whether arrangements were right or wrong, lawful or unlawful, so long as the arrangements suited what he needed at the time. He gave repeated evidence about his reliance on his accountant, stating on several occasions "you need to ask my accountant all this" and at another point "I don't know accounts as such. You're just bamboozling me with all these entities and amounts and what have you. Talk to the accountant." I infer he gave instructions about what he wanted to achieve in relation to his business dealings and generally left it to his accountant to implement his instructions, with Mr Laski being indifferent to how the outcome was achieved.
190 That said, some of his evidence revealed he knew more than his repeated answer "you'll have to ask my accountant" would at first suggest. At one point he spoke about a period of time when Clinica was "dormant", and at another point when asked about the corporation Australian Debt Buying Services Pty Ltd (ACN 006 127 993) Mr Laski described the time "when we first starting using" this company. In my opinion, although he may have left the implementation of his plans to his accountant, he is fully aware of the advantages, mechanisms and arrangements for the use of corporate entities in structuring his business ventures. He knows more about these matters, in my opinion, than he was prepared to reveal in his evidence. I do not believe his assertions such as "I don't understand accounts". I find he was not prepared to give answers which he perceived might be damaging to his, and Clinica's, interests.
191 I find Mr Laski shut his eyes to his obligations as a director of companies, hid behind his accountant, deliberately did not ask himself the kind of questions that a prudent director would ask, and did what suited his personal, individual interests which he advanced through a variety of corporate entities. He is not fit to be a director of a corporation with such an attitude, and poses a significant risk to consumers and other vulnerable members of the community, whose interests he has demonstrated he is prepared to put in jeopardy to serve his own. Mr Laski's disregard for his obligations as a director is made all the more egregious because it is plain from the evidence that he has been a director of a long list of corporate vehicles. The ACCC tendered a personal name search conducted on the Australian Securities and Investments Commission database in respect of Mr Laski showing he is currently an office holder (as director or secretary) of some eight different corporations and has previously been a director of some 19 different corporations, from as early as 1979. This all lends support to a substantial period of disqualification.
192 When cross-examined about how he managed all his corporate vehicles during his bankruptcy, his evidence was that his ex-wife (Ms Tania Laski) "looked after" the Swishette company while he was a bankrupt. He was otherwise evasive about any further details. However this evidence is consistent with the evidence given by Ms Fahey in this proceeding, about the way Mr Laski was prepared to use others, including people with some connection to him, and perhaps some level of vulnerability, to further his own ends and interests.
193 A similar example emerged with respect to Clinica itself, which was first registered in the name of Margreen Nominees Pty Ltd and later changed its name to Clinica Internationale Pty Ltd. Mr Laski gave evidence that Ms Laski had been the director of Margreen, and that he had had nothing to do with the company until he became a director in December 2005:
And Tania was a director of the company between 1995 and 2005, wasn't she?---Of Margreen?
Yes?---Yes.
And you took over from her at the end of 2005, soon after your bankruptcy ended?---Well, she told me that she wasn't using the company and she wanted to either close it or give it to me.
This is another company that you had Tania look after during your bankruptcy, isn't it?---No, I had nothing to do with Margreen.
Had nothing to do with it during Tania's directorship of it?---Nothing.
Nothing at all?---I established that for her when we separated, because she ran the business in training models for Myers, and she used to do fashion parades and the races and all that sort of thing, and that was what she used the company for.
So until December 2005, when you became a director, you had nothing at all to do with the company?---No. I didn't even know that it was not doing anything in the latter years, and she wanted to, you know, shed it or get rid of it because it was costing her money for the accountant to deal with it.
194 That evidence is difficult to marry up to the company search in respect of Clinica which was tendered and on which Mr Laski was cross-examined. That record shows that despite Mr Laski claiming he had had nothing to do with the company before December 2005, his residential address in Brighton was named as the registered office of Margreen (as Clinica was then known) from February 2003 to April 2005, and as its principal place of business from August 2002 to March 2005 and again from March 2006 onwards. Mr Laski sought to explain this in the following way:
so the answer you gave earlier that you had nothing to do with the company before December 2005 is incorrect, isn't it?---Well, no, I didn't have anything to do with the company. Tania - - -
But nevertheless, your address was put as the registered office and principal place of business?---Well, I'm trying to explain. Tania used the address for all documents.
And did you have a habit of you and Tania using addresses for documents of each other?---No. I did on this occasion because she asked me to.
Yes, and it's convenient to be able to use her name and her address during a period of your bankruptcy, isn't it?---Well, it was agreed that she would be the director, yes.
And did you [or] she do other things in relation to your companies and your assets over time in order to assist you to shield them?---No. There was nothing to shield. There was a trust and a company under the trust.
And you've been using each other's names in order to - whenever it suited you to - - -?---No, it wasn't a case of when it suited me. She asked me if she could get all corporate documentation sent to Maroona Road. I said fine.
Why would she have sent all the documentation to Maroona Road - to your address?---Well, you would have to ask her, but maybe she was moving or she was out of the country or whatever.
195 There was considerable evidence to support the proposition advanced by the ACCC that Mr Laski used his various corporate vehicles to move money around as it suited his interests, and the interests of the various business ventures with which he has been involved. In cross-examination, Mr Laski's evidence included:
Well, in fact, in your previous affidavit you said that out of the deposit of the sale of the Brighton property, you distributed the monies. $50,724 was paid to Pritchards Placements. Why was $50,724 paid to Pritchards Placements?---It was just breaking up the $140,000-odd that Swishette received.
Well, Swishette only owed $14,400 to Pritchards Placements, didn't it?---Yeah.
So - - -?---I know. I remember now. Pritchards on-lent that to Equitale and Equitable paid the tax.
So it went around in a circle between the companies?---Yes. Well, one had the tax liability, the other one had the money. So it lent the money.
One helped out the other, yes?---That's right.
And do you accept that looking at Swishette's own accounts and own financial position, it wasn't an interest of Swishette or the second Laski Family Trust to pay $50,000 to Pritchards Placements. If you look just at the company and the trust?---No, it paid it out on a loan, and - - -
It wasn't in the interest of the company or the trust to pay the $50,000 to Pritchards Placements for the payment of someone else's tax liabilities?---Well, the tax liability had to be paid and it was paid.
You also stated in paragraph 22 of your most recent affidavit - 22(a) that:
Swishette paid out Clinica's loan to Letore of $261,000 for Letore's benefit.
?---Yes.
That payment wasn't in Swishette's interest either, was it?---Why isn't it in Swishette's interest?
So you're saying it's in Swishette interest to pay out Clinica's loan to Letore?---Yes. Well - - -
Because the companies help each other?---The companies help each other. That's correct.
…
But if you look at it simply from the point of view of Swishette and the Second Laski Family Trust, it wasn't in their interest to make this payment to Clinica, was it?---Well, it is in their interest, because that's the deal. The companies - one holds an asset, the other one works and makes money, and - - -
That's the way you've operated your companies, is it?---I've always operated - I don't know any other way to operate. It's like if I had three brothers, and, you know, we would all lend each other money and - - -
They're all family?---It's all family.
196 Mr Laski was also cross-examined about the loan to Clinica from the Commonwealth Bank of Australia, secured by way of a mortgage of the Brighton property for which Swishette is the registered owner:
In giving the security interest over Swishette's property to the bank, you were acting in breach of your director's duties to Swishette, weren't you?---Why was I?
You didn't give any consideration to whether it was in the interests of Swishette or the Laski Family Trust - - -?---Well, it is in - - -
- - - to give the security?---Interest of Swishette because Swishette, at the end of the day, all being well, would have made money and would have bought a bigger asset. It's like Letore. Letore trades and deals. The money will go to Swishette towards a property.
So if Clinica traded well, Swishette would have the funds?---Sorry? If Clinica - yes. If there were funds to be had.
Because you treated the funds in those companies interchangeably?---No. I treat the loans between the companies on the basis of cash flow. If there's something to pay and there's no money in that account and there is in another company, it can borrow the money.
You also know that you were acting in breach of trust of the Laski Family Trust when you agreed for Swishette to grant the security interest, don't you?---I wasn't aware of that.
And there was also no benefit to Letore in granting a guarantee to the Commonwealth Bank, was there?---Yes. Because again, you see, it's like Clinica was the baby. New baby on the block. It needed support, it needed money, it needed funds. So Letore would have got a dividend, let's say, with Clinica being successful.
197 Australian Debt Buying Services, to which I have previously referred, was formerly known as Mentor Cambo Pty Ltd. In the schedule to the home loan contract between Swishette and the Commonwealth Bank in respect of the Brighton property, Mentor Cambo as trustee for the TD-Two Trust was recorded as a guarantor for the home loan. Mr Laski was cross-examined about Mentor Cambo, the TD-Two Trust, and the circumstances of this guarantee:
And this is another company that you had Tania look after during your bankruptcy, isn't it?---Which company is that? The Australian Debt Buying - - -
This one, now called Australian Debt Buying Services?---Well, when you say look after, she was a director, yes.
Yes. She became the sole director when you became a bankrupt?---Yes.
And then when you exited from bankruptcy, you took over as a director from her?---Yes.
And, again, the - now, is this company a trustee of any trust?---Which company?
This company, Australian Debt Buying Services?---I don't think so. I don't know.
You don't think so. What about under its former name, Mentor Cambo, is that a trustee of any trust?---I think it was but, look, you should ask my accountant all this. I don't know the ins and outs of all this.
No, because you simply leave things to your accountant and you just treat your companies interchangeably?---What do you mean by interchangeably?
Well, you don't care about the particular corporate identity of the company. All you know is, you've got a number of companies and you leave it up to your accountant to work out the documents?---They work out the documents, and I work out the business, yes.
And similarly with the funds of those companies, you treat those funds as your own?--- No, I don't.
Well, you don't distinguish between funds of a particular company and a particular trust?---Yes, I do. They're distinguished in the balance sheet, in the - in the tax returns.
But not in practice?---No, in practice they may lend each other money from time to time, due to cash flow situations. But all that's taken up in the tax returns and the - and the corporate documents by the accountant.
Well, we will come back to the corporate documents. But was Mentor Cambo, to your knowledge, a trustee of any trust?---I'm not a hundred per cent sure. I don't know.
Are you familiar with the name TD-Two Trust?---Yes, TD-Two Trust, yes.
What - when was this trust set up?---I don't know when it was set up.
Who are the beneficiaries of it?---I don't know that either.
What assets does it own?---It ended up - I don't think it had any assets, no.
Had no assets at all?---I don't believe so.
198 When taken to the home loan contract and the entry recording the guarantee by Mentor Cambo as trustee for the TD-Two Trust, Mr Laski gave the following evidence:
Why would Mentor Cambo give a guarantee for this debt?---Possibly because the bank asked for it.
And who was in control of Mentor Cambo at the time?---I would have been the director.
You were the director of it? Were the sole director, weren't you - - -?---Yes.
- - - having replaced Tania Laski. And who were the beneficiaries of the TD-Two Trust at the time?---I don't know.
And did you know at the time who they were?---I don't know, no.
You didn't turn your mind to who the beneficiaries were, did you?---No. It was a trust.
Yes. You just agreed to grant a guarantee on its behalf, to secure the debts of Swishette?---Yes.
And you understood that that was a breach of the director's duties of you as a director of Mentor Cambo?---Why was it a breach?
Well, did you give any consideration to the interests of Mentor Cambo and the TD-Two Trust in giving the guarantee?---What do you mean?
You agreed - - -?---Mentor Cambo was not trading.
HER HONOUR: What if the mortgage defaulted, Mr Laski?---Sorry?
What if the mortgage defaulted and the guarantee was called on? I think that's the thrust of Dr Bigos' question?---Right. Well, the bank was aware it didn't have an asset. It had a business but not an asset.
DR BIGOS: What was the business?---I believe it was in the vending business.
Was it a business that you operated?---Yes, under Miami Coin.
And who were the beneficiaries of the trust?---Without looking at it I wouldn't know.
You don't know?---Yes.
199 It is clear that the movement of funds between companies Mr Laski controlled was undertaken to accommodate Mr Laski's own financial requirements as he viewed them, through the use of corporate vehicles. As I have noted earlier, in 2001 Mr Laski arranged for a charge in favour of Tania Laski to be placed over Brighton property to secure debts he owed to Ms Laski. Mr Laski did the same in relation to a payment of $75,000 by Ms Fahey as an investment in a joint venture with Mr Laski. That is despite the Brighton property being owned by Swishette, in its capacity as a trustee for Second Rodney Laski Family Trust. In other words, Mr Laski's personal role in these corporate and trust entities led him to consider he was entitled to use whatever funds were located in any such vehicles for such purposes as he saw fit, including his personal purposes, or businesses he was operating though another corporate entity. In that sense, the legal structures were meaningless to him. Although, for example, he asserted in his affidavit evidence that he paid rent to live at the Brighton property, on cross-examination he accepted that the rental payments were taken up in a "loan account", and were "not physically" paid to Swishette by him. He agreed there was no written lease. He said the "accountant decided" what the rental figure would be.
200 Mr Laski stated in cross-examination that he, personally, does not have a bank account. The manner in which he directs the transfer of funds between corporate entities controlled by him explains how he is able to manage his personal financial expenditure and commitments without a bank account in his own name. His evidence was, for example, that in order to access cash:
So, how do you get the money out? How do you get your cash?---Well, mainly overseas clients and they send it to Letore. And then if I need money, I just go to Letore.
201 At [15] of his affidavit sworn on 19 October 2015, Mr Laski deposed that the funds from the business line of credit given by the Commonwealth Bank to Clinica on security offered by Swishette over the Brighton property were used both to pay Clinica's operating expenses "and to make loans to other companies". He then admitted in cross-examination that it was no business of Clinica's to make loans to other companies, and that these loans were not documented in any loan agreement, but that if one company was asked to loan monies to another, and it had the money, that company lent it to the other company.
202 All the companies of which Mr Laski spoke were those controlled by him. In reality, it was Mr Laski who "asked", and Mr Laski who moved the funds. In effect, in somewhat more guarded terms, this is what his evidence at [16] of his affidavit sworn 19 October 2015 also says. The key distinction is that in his affidavit he asserted the loans were "repaid when assets were realised or the other businesses made money". I accept the ACCC's submissions that none of the corporate accounts in evidence bore out this statement, and Mr Laski did not point to any accounts which demonstrated repayment, beyond referring to changes from one year to the other in the amounts recorded as loans to Letore, Equitale and Swishette in the Clinica balance sheets. In submissions, his counsel contended the repayment of loans made between the companies was to be inferred from such increases and decreases in the corporate account balances over the years. Counsel conceded it was not the case any of these loans between companies, repayment of which was always at Mr Laski's call, could be characterised as arm's length transactions.
203 I do not accept there is any reliable or persuasive evidence that funds in fact transferred between companies controlled by Mr Laski (which funds were in fact expended) were repaid in whole or in part. Mr Laski's own oral evidence supports the proposition that he directed the use of funds located within a particular company on a needs basis, which regularly resulted in transfer of such funds to other entities, such transfers not being in the interests of the transferring company at all, but clearly being in Mr Laski's overall interest as he saw it. In light of that evidence, the submission that movements in the corporate loan accounts indicated that repayments were being made cannot be sustained.
204 Mr Laski gave evidence in cross-examination concerning where he proposed the money might be sourced to pay back the various "loans" between his corporate entities. That evidence was vague and unpersuasive. I do not accept it. What better reflects all of the evidence is that Mr Laski uses money from whichever corporate entity in his control that has funds at a given time, and then decides where the money should go. Mr Laski's evidence that "the accountant" told him this could all be done by way of loans, no matter what the purpose, is scarcely credible. The example "loan" in his affidavit evidence from Clinica to Equitale, in the sum of $7,000 and said to be represented by an entry on a cheque butt, is an example of the vague and non-specific approach he takes. In my opinion when Mr Laski uses the term "loan", either orally or in writing (such as on this example cheque butt) he uses the term as a substitute for no more than money moving from one entity to another, not with any intention that the funds belong to one specific entity and need to be repaid. There was nothing in his oral evidence, nor in any of the documentary evidence, which suggested any acknowledgment or recognition of a contractual obligation to repay the funds transferred.
205 There is not inconsiderable complexity, and debate, attaching to the legally correct characterisation of financial transactions which are contended to be something other than what they purport to be. Edmonds J traced the history and debate, especially around the kind of financial transactions which might be considered "shams" for taxation purposes, in Normandy Finance Pty Ltd v Commissioner of Taxation [2015] FCA 1420 at [46]-[66]. In the present case it is unnecessary to embark on such a characterisation exercise, although I return to the "sham" concept below at [263] below to address one of the respondents' submissions.
206 However, in Normandy at [67]-[72], Edmonds J also considered the essential features of a loan. At [72] Edmonds J concluded:
In short, a loan is a payment of money to which there is attached an obligation of repayment upon demand or at a fixed date.
207 At [69], his Honour referred to the observation of Gleeson CJ in Prime Wheat Association Ltd (ACN 000 245 269) v Chief Commissioner of Stamp Duties (1997) 42 NSWLR 505 at 512:
The essence of a loan is an obligation of repayment.
208 It is that essential feature for which there is no evidence in this case. Rather, the evidence suggests Mr Laski directed the transfer of funds between companies he controlled as he saw fit, so that one corporate entity gave money to another when the need arose. If there was reciprocal giving it was just that; it was not the calling in of an accepted legal obligation to repay.
209 Some of the funds paid by Clinica clients were used by Mr Laski to fund his own financial interests, or those of his other corporate vehicles. For example, Ms Lloyd's affidavit demonstrates that monies paid by Clinica clients for the Clinica program were then paid into bank accounts held by Swishette and Letore. Her evidence, which was not contradicted or challenged, was that the following pattern was evident from the bank accounts:
An analysis of the transactions listed on the first tab of the Financial Transactions Spread Sheet shows that during the Statement Period Mr Laski routinely followed a pattern of payments between accounts, whereby:
(a) Mr Laski withdraws an amount from the Clinica Account;
(b) On the same day or shortly after, Mr Laski deposits the same or a similar amount into the Letore Account;
(c) Within the next few days or weeks (and sometimes on the same day) Mr Laski withdraws an amount from the Letore Account. This amount may be smaller than the amount initially deposited, as some funds stay in the Letore Account (presumably for payment of other expenses);
(d) Within the next few days or weeks (and sometimes on the same day), Mr Laski withdraws an amount from the Letore Account and deposits it into the Swishette Cheque Account;
(e) Later that month, Mr Laski withdraws an amount from the Swishette Cheque Account and deposits it into the Swishette Home Loan Account for payment of the mortgage.
For example:
(a) On 25 September 2012, Paramjit Kaur deposits $5,000 into the Clinica Account;
(b) The same day, $5,000 is withdrawn from the Clinica Account and $3,200 is deposited into the Letore Account;
(c) The same day, $3,200 is withdrawn from the Letore Account and deposited into the Swishette Cheque Account.
(d) Two days later, $3,045 is withdrawn from the Swishette Cheque Account and deposited into the Swishette Home Loan Account.
Another example is:
(a) On 14, 15 and 18 March 2013, deposits of $1,000, $1,000 and $3,000 are made by Clinica clients into the Clinica Account;
(b) On 20 March 2013, $4,000 is withdrawn from the Clinica Account and deposited into the Letore Account;
(c) On 27 March, $4,000 is withdrawn from the Letore Account and deposited into the Swishette Cheque Account.
(d) The same day, $3,045 is withdrawn from the Swishette Cheque Account and deposited into the Swishette Home Loan Account.
210 An ANZ credit card held by Letore showed charges which were on their face personal expenses of Mr Laski, such as optometry and medical expenses, clothing, food and alcohol, student union fees and veterinary and pet store expenses. This is another example where, in response, Mr Laski's evidence is that these expenses were a "loan" from Letore to him. There is no basis to accept that assertion and I find it to have been a self-serving statement by Mr Laski which does not reflect the reality of how he simply used funds of the entities he controlled as he pleased. In cross-examination, Mr Laski was taken to the financial statements for Letore, which he had declared fairly presented the company's financial position. He was unable to explain why, in the balance sheet for Letore, none of the current assets nor the non-current assets reflected any loan to him, stating once again that "you have to ask my accountant". The same Letore credit card also had payments for Magistrates' Court charges that were not related to Letore, but were related to Clinica. The example given by Ms Lloyd in her evidence, and not challenged, was a payment on 5 April 2013 to the Magistrates' Court from this ANZ credit card, being the same day proceedings were instituted by Clinica against Mr Uppal in relation to the monies he had not paid under the agreement with Clinica. I have no difficulty in finding that what has occurred on occasions such as these (which I am satisfied were numerous) is that Mr Laski had elected to use credit then available to one of the corporate entities controlled by him to fund expenses incurred by another entity, or by himself personally, ignoring any legal or practical separation in the funds and interests of the various corporate entities and neither imposing nor recognising any obligation to repay the funds used or transferred.