4.5.2.4.4 Emphasising adverse medical and social consequences of failing to treat
171 In many of the Annexure B patient's interactions with salespeople, the salespeople emphasised adverse medical and social consequences which they said the patient would suffer without AMI's treatments and medications. This technique followed the instructions and scripts given to salespeople by AMI.
172 For instance, the Power Point presentation found in the office of Hanspeter included the following:
SEX IS NOT JUST FOR ENJOYMENT OR FUN - IT'S A BIG HEALTH ISSUE - LET ME EXPLAIN TO YOU WHY:
E.D.
50% LESS CHANCE TO HAVE HEART ATTACK AND STROKE
LESS CHANCE TO DEVELOP PROSTATE CANCER
MEN WHO HAVE SEX AFTER 60 LIVE 10 YEARS LONGER
30% OF MEN WITH E.D. PARTNERS SUFFER FROM DEPRESSION
P.E.
POSSIBILITY OF BECOMING IMPOTENT AND SUFFER SHRINKAGE OF THE PENIS
[ACCC 4.37]
173 This reflected the Power Point of the "ABC of Sales - Think like a Patient" that stated:
What is the consequences fir [sic] staying at the point "A" (Penile shrinkage, heart attack, stroke, wife's depression)
[ACCC 4.403, p 6]
174 A longer version of the "ABC of Sales" instructed the sales staff as follows:
Expand and repeat the benefits he will receive and the emotional relief you'll provide.
…
2. To remove by 50% chance of developing heart attack or stroke.
3. If not increase than at least not to lose the size of the penis.
4. To remove the possibility to develop psychological impotence (PE patient).
[ACCC 4.51, p 3]
175 In the Instructions to Clinical Coordinators script, the same message was conveyed in the context of the salesperson seeking to overcome the patient's objection that the patient needed to talk to his partner:
Never forget the serious potential flow on effects from untreated PE (possible psychological impotence, shrinkage of the penis - "use it or lose it" and continued low self esteem/diminished quality of life) OR for untreated ED (i.e. men who are not sexually active) (50% less change of a heart attack or stroke, your partner has less change of developing depression, as a result of your ED (30% of partners of men with ED develop depression), shrinkage of the penis - "use it or lose it" and continued low self esteem/diminished quality of life.)
[Emphasis in original.]
[ACCC 4.9, p 9]
176 The ACCC relied upon interactions between 137 Annexure B patients and salespeople to support the claim that salespeople told patients of adverse consequences which would follow if patients did not take the treatment.
177 A number of the interactions relied on amounted to no more than ordinary sales chatter which did not rise to a level to be relevant to a consideration of unconscionable conduct whether alone or in combination with other parts of the interaction. A typical example is a passage relied on by the ACCC in the interaction between patient 141 and salesperson Gary as follows:
GARY: … And are you in a relationship or single, what's the story there?
PATIENT: I'm single.
GARY: Single, okay. So, yeah, quite important then to obviously last longer. Once you get them on the hook you want them to stay there, buddy.
PATIENT: Yes.
GARY: And have a lot more fun. That's all right. Excellent.
[ACCC 3.306, pp 2-3]
178 An examination of the transcripts of the interactions with the 152 AMI patients disclosed that about 74 interactions exhibited circumstances in which the salesperson spoke of adverse medical consequences flowing from not taking the treatment which might be of sufficient seriousness to be relevant to a case of unconscionable conduct. These include patients 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 10, 11, 17, 22, 23, 27, 28, 31, 32, 35, 38, 43, 44, 45, 47, 49, 52, 54, 57, 58, 59, 61, 62, 64, 69, 72, 74, 83, 88, 91, 94, 97, 98, 107, 108, 111, 113, 116, 121, 123, 124, 125, 127, 128, 131, 136, 140, 141, 145, 150, 154, 156.
179 The adverse medical consequences mentioned in many of these interactions included psychological impotence. A typical example was the interaction between the salesperson Hanspeter and patient 64 which included the following:
HANS: So it could be - see premature ejaculation is - first of all, you're very young; we have patients up to 109 years, okay, and premature ejaculation is a condition. There's a lot of people have the same problem, at least 20 to 30 per cent from all the male population, okay. That means you can't control the ejaculation so you come very quickly, okay.
PATIENT: Yeah.
HANS: If that's the case over years, if it's not sorted out, it turns into impotence. That means you can't get an erection any more.
PATIENT: Oh, okay.
HANS: But that does not happen straight away; that takes years. What will happen is - what you get first is the erections sometimes are not so strong any more. Yeah, so that's what you've got, a bit of ED, okay.
PATIENT: Okay, yeah.
HANS: But the main problem, what you call this premature because if you can last longer, that means if you can pump away for 15, 20 minutes, the erection will be rock hard, because it's like running a choke for so long; your muscles get really hard, yeah.
PATIENT: Yeah, sure.
HANS: So when we sort it out, most of the time the other problem will be gone anyway.
PATIENT: Oh, okay, yeah.
…
HANS: And we measure things like that. This generation - the last 10, 15 years has been much better because when you go in the gym, for instance, okay, and we look at these old guys in the sauna with their little willies, it's not because they have a little willy, it's just they didn't fix a problem like that because that was always - they had this problem; it just hasn't been treated before, okay. And when you don't treat premature ejaculation - see, the penis is ..... The woman takes about 15 minutes to climax with penetration, okay. So if you penetrate her to make her climax, it takes about 10 to 15 minutes. That is normally how long you should control your ejaculation to, as a man, okay.
PATIENT: Yep.
HANS: If you don't do that, then you short change yourself, obviously, with the woman, okay.
PATIENT: Yeah.
HANS: Now, this is like the - the penis is a muscle like every other. Now, if you don't train it properly, it will start shrinking, because it doesn't fill up with blood any more, and that's why there's little willies in the gym, because the arteries get hard; no blood gets in there, so the penis starts shrinking, yeah.
PATIENT: Yeah.
HANS: It's exactly the same as blocked pipes. The reason why men don't get so hard an erection any more as when they were younger is they haven't treated premature ejaculation or it ends up with - what's it called - psychologically impotence. When the arteries are hard, the blood can't go into the penis. The penis is still the same size; it doesn't fill up that much any more. And that way, it's smaller, and that way, it doesn't get hard any more, and it gets worse and worse, obviously, by the years, yeah. Does it all make sense?
PATIENT: Yeah.
[ACCC 4.317, pp 3-4, 13]
180 Each salesperson had an individual way of conveying that message. Thus, salesperson Brian told patient 59:
BRIAN: Long-term premature ejaculation does lead to impotence. A lot of young blokes don't understand that but that's what happens.
[ACCC 4.311, p 10]
181 And salesperson Vincent said to patient 145:
[Th]e - the longer you leave it the quicker it's going to get, and if you keep leaving it, mate, it can lead to erection problems as well, besides the fact that, you know, you're getting less and less sex, which means you're getting less practice, so it's going to start to compound itself and become a real problem, and certainly if you leave it, mate, you might end up having your penis stopping to work altogether. You don't want that?
[ACCC 4.280, p 7]
182 Salesperson Lori told patient 94:
LORI: Yes. Look, that actually develops into an anxiety, you know, because you want to go the distance, but the more you think about it, the worse it actually gets.
PATIENT: Okay, that's probably what it is then, because - - -
LORI: Yes. Look, it develops into what is called a "psychological impotence."
PATIENT: Yes.
LORI: And you know, you put that anxiety on yourself, it - you know you're not, perhaps, providing satisfaction for yourself, your partner. All these things play a part, and it's a compounding effect. This problem, even though it may be there a short time, unless you treat it, premature ejaculation is something that isn't just going to go away.
[ACCC 4.368, p 3]
183 There are examples of references to prostate cancer in the interactions between salespeople and patients, for instance, patients 31, 44, 57, 83, 111, 131. Salesperson Hanspeter said to patient 57:
HANS: The other thing is, the money is wise spent, that's for sure, because I don't know if you know, but if you have a good sex life, less likely to get a heart attack, less likely to get a stroke, and the most important thing is less likely to get prostate cancer which is in Australia the biggest killer in men.
PATIENT: Yeah. Yeah, that's for sure, yeah.
[ACCC 4.308, p 22]
184 There were also references by the salespeople to penis shrinkage. For example, salesperson Vincent said to patient 107:
VINCENT: Now when this problem is left untreated usually nothing changes or
there is chances of it getting worse and quicker over the years.
PATIENT: Okay.
VINCENT: Eventually when it's left untreated altogether it can lead to erection
problems and shrinkage of the penis.
[ACCC 4.298, p 3]
185 There were references to heart attack or stroke, for instance, to patients 57, 83, 131. Salesperson Hanspeter told patient 83:
PATIENT: And it's [the medication] not harmful to you?
HANS: No, no no. It's good for you. Sex is good for you okay? The more sex you have, so - the better it will be for you in the long run to avoid prostate cancer, to avoid a stroke. To avoid a heart attack, you know?
PATIENT: Yeah.
HANS: It's - when you only last a minute or two, that's not long enough for all the blood to stay in the penis you see. The penis has to be like your legs or your hands, to be used all the time. And you using incorrectly, then obviously the arteries get hard. That also means that there's more chance that there's no blood pressure in there so that means you don't get any erection anymore. So that's why so many people with premature ejaculation, eventually it ends up in impotence. Yeah? So you losing your erection, yeah?
PATIENT: Okay, yep.
HANS: Makes sense, yeah?
PATIENT: Yep.
…
HANS: And you have full control of this, less likely to get prostate cancer, less likely to get a stroke. It's a very small investment, it's two cups of coffee a day.
PATIENT: Yep, and how much is it a month, sorry?
HANS: Sorry?
PATIENT: How much is it again, a month?
HANS: 198.
PATIENT: 198. Yep.
[ACCC 4.349, pp 9-10, 12]
186 In cross-examination Dr Vaisman conceded that treatment of ED does not reduce the risk of heart attack or stroke. The following exchange occurred:
MR BURNSIDE: And treating erectile dysfunction doesn't alter the existence of cardiovascular disease, does it?
DR VAISMAN: Correct.
MR BURNSIDE: And so, whether or not a person has a heart attack as an associated condition is unrelated to whether or not they have the treatment?
DR VAISMAN: Correct.
MR BURNSIDE: Because the treatment is for erectile dysfunction?
DR VAISMAN: Correct.
MR BURNSIDE: Not for cardiovascular disease?
DR VAISMAN: Correct.
MR BURNSIDE: So that taking the treatment doesn't reduce your chance of having a heart attack, does it?
DR VAISMAN: Correct.
MR BURNSIDE: And it doesn't reduce your chance of having a stroke for the same reasons?
DR VAISMAN: Correct.
[TS 1753]
187 Patients were therefore given incorrect information when they were told by the salespeople that treatment would prevent stroke or heart attack. The salespeople were incorrectly trained when they were told by Dr Vaisman himself in the ABC of Sales and Instructions to Clinical Coordinators that they should tell patients that they would avoid heart attacks or strokes by taking the AMI medications.
188 Dr Vaisman was asked in cross-examination about his claim that failure to treat ED or PE would lead to shrinkage of the penis. The following exchange occurred in cross-examination:
MR BURNSIDE: And I suggest to you that there is no article which demonstrates that failing to take the treatment causes the penis to shrink.
…
DR VAISMAN: There is a scientific articles.
MR BURNSIDE: Yes?
DR VAISMAN: The three articles done by scientists and published in the International Journal of Impotence which says that people with - who suffer from impotence erectile dysfunction they have shorter penises, penises, yes. Absolutely prominent factor.
MR BURNSIDE: But the article doesn't say that correcting erectile dysfunction causes the penis to grow longer and neither does it say that having, leaving it untreated causes the penis to shrink. They don't say that, do they?
DR VAISMAN: I don't understand. I don't know. There is an article which says that people who stop to be sexually active is a signs of the penis shrinkage - shrinking. That's what the scientific article says.
MR BURNSIDE: But again, it's a matter of distinguishing between conditions that are associated and conditions that are causally connected, do you follow that?
DR VAISMAN: No.
MR BURNSIDE: Right. Do you know the difference between correlation and cause?
DR VAISMAN : Correlation, yes.
MR BURNSIDE: Yes?
DR VAISMAN: And cause, yes.
MR BURNSIDE: Right. So that if a person who is not sexually active is found on average to have a smaller penis, it does not mean that not being sexually active caused that?
DR VAISMAN: Absolutely. It says if person stopped to be sexually active, the size of the penis decrease. That's exactly the conclusion of these articles.
[TS 1753 - 1754]
189 Then, the issue of penis shrinkage in patients with PE arose and the following exchange occurred:
MR BURNSIDE: But people who present with premature ejaculation are also told that they risk their penis shrinking if they don't take the treatment, aren't they?
DR VAISMAN: Absolutely wrong.
MR BURNSIDE: Pardon?
DR VAISMAN: Only for people with erectile dysfunction.
MR BURNSIDE: Okay. And you would agree that people who present with premature ejaculation should never be told that their penis will shrink if they don't - - - ?
DR VAISMAN: Correct.
[TS 1757]
190 Dr Vaisman addressed the question of impotence as a consequence of failing to treat PE in the following exchange:
MR BURNSIDE: And they [men who suffer from PE] should never be told that they will become impotent if they don't get the treatment?
DR VAISMAN: They - no, they can become impotent, that's for sure.
MR BURNSIDE: They can become impotent from premature - - - ?
DR VAISMAN: Absolutely.
MR BURNSIDE: - - - ejaculation?
DR VAISMAN: Absolutely.
MR BURNSIDE: And have you got any article that suggests that?
DR VAISMAN: Yes, and I will explain why. It's - coming the time when person - man understands he cannot satisfy the woman he try to avoid sex altogether and become psychological impotent.
MR BURNSIDE: So that's psychological impotence, not actual impotence?
DR VAISMAN: What do you mean? It's impotence, but psychological, he cannot get it up.
MR BURNSIDE: Yes. I want to suggest to you that the following annexure B patients who presented with PE were told of the risk of their penis shrinking. They're Mr [B], Mr [B], Mr [C], Mr [C], Mr [L], Mr [M], Mr [O] and Mr [V]. So you would say that all of those people should not have been told of that risk, do you agree?
DR VAISMAN: You misunderstood.
MR BURNSIDE: Pardon?
DR VAISMAN: You misunderstood me. We explain to the patient untreated premature ejaculation can lead to psychological impotence, and as soon as he develops psychological impotence he can develop the shrinkage of the penis, correct.
MR BURNSIDE: So contrary to what you said a few minutes ago, it's okay to tell them if they present with PE that their penis might shrink?
DR VAISMAN: Only in the context they will stop to be sexually active.
MR BURNSIDE: And you're aware that the articles that talk about penis shrinkage say that even partial erections during sleep are sufficient to prevent any change in the size of the penis?
DR VAISMAN: No. Article says that the study of impotent men shows that the size of the penis decrease significantly.
MR BURNSIDE: I want to suggest to you that first of all that you do encourage the clinical coordinators to refer to the adverse effects of not using your treatments, do you agree with that?
DR VAISMAN: Yes, that's their duty, to tell the consequences of not having treatment, continue to be impotent.
[TS 1757]
191 Dr Vaisman said that ED and PE robbed men of their confidence so that they avoided sexual intercourse. That process was described by Dr Vaisman as leading to "psychological impotence". He claimed that psychological impotence had a physical consequence, namely, that there was shrinkage of the penis [TS 1757]. Dr Vaisman said that it was the responsibility of salespeople to tell patients of this consequence. He also agreed that he wanted the salespeople to use the suggestion of psychological impotence and shrinkage of the penis as part of their sales routine [TS 1750]. They did so.
192 The ACCC argued that the transcripts provided evidence that salespeople followed the training scripts produced by or for Dr Vaisman which made reference to psychological impotence and shrinkage of the penis as a consequence of ED and PE. The ACCC also argued that the information was medical information and should not have been imparted by salespeople. When the salespeople addressed medical issues, they gave an impression to patients that they had medical knowledge and that the advice was part of a professional medical program. In fact they were simply repeating information, of which they had no technical or expert understanding, designed to assist in the selling process.
193 When challenged about the correctness of the claim that ED and PE led to shrinkage of the penis, Dr Vaisman said there was an article about a study of impotent men that showed that "the size of the penis decreased significantly" [TS 1757]. In the course of final oral submissions, counsel for the respondents handed up a document to be read as part of the final written submissions which addressed scientific material relied on by the respondents generally (respondents' additional reference to scientific evidence). In this document, the respondents referred to one article on this subject.
194 The article by Z. Awwad and others entitled, "Penile measurements in normal adult Jordanians and in patients with erectile dysfunction" (2005) 17 International Journal of Impotence Research 191, reported on a study which aimed to determine the penile size in an adult normal group of 271 and impotent group of 109 Jordanian men [R13.14, p 868]. The results of the study were aimed to assist patients in deciding whether to undertake penile lengthening procedures. The study of penile size was also thought to be possibly useful for the process of manufacturing condoms. In the normal group the mean flaccid length was 9.3 centimetres and in the impotent group the mean flaccid length was 7.7 centimetres. In the normal group the mean stretched length was 13.5 centimetres and the impotent group the mean stretched length was 11.6 centimetres.
195 The investigation undertaken by the study was to ascertain penile size. It was not designed to draw conclusions about the cause of any differences in size.
196 A number of speculative remarks were made about the cause of the difference in penile size between normal Jordanian men and Jordanian men suffering from erectile dysfunction. The respondents relied on part of a passage as follows:
The cause of impotence in our patients was mainly psychogenic, neurology, medication, and anxiety. Iacono et al reported the presence of structural disorders in the tunica albuginea of patients suffering from psychogenic, arteriogenic, and venogenic impotence with significant decrease in the elastic fibers in the tunica albuginea of impotent men compared to a control group. The decrease in length in impotent men in this study could be explained by the loss of elastic fibers, and the lack of intermittent stretching in the tunica albuginea, confirming the common saying (if you do not use it you lose it).
[Emphasis added.]
197 Immediately following that speculation was another potential reason for the difference in penile size, and that other reason was not related to continuing to engage in sexual intercourse. Rather it speculated that the cause could be related to the aging process as follows:
Organic impotence in aging men could be due to a venous leakage factor through veins that are situated normally on the distal third of the ventral penile surface. The impaired veno-occlusive function of the tunica albuginea is contributed to by the decrease in elastic fibers concentration found in impotent men.
198 This article, therefore, did not validate Dr Vaisman's claim that by failing to treat ED or PE men will suffer shrinkage of the penis.
199 There were also instances of the salespeople emphasising that the patient would suffer adverse social consequences if he did not treat his ED or PE, such as that the patient's partner may become depressed or that a patient would not satisfy his partner if he did not last longer. These exchanges played on the guilt and embarrassment of patients. For example, the following exchange occurred between salesperson Vincent and patient 28:
VINCENT: And you've had the problem almost the whole time you've been with this lady?
PATIENT: Yes. Yes.
VINCENT: Oh, no. I hope not many funny things go through her head. I mean, a lot of ladies who stay with men who have these sort of problems they get a bit depressed. They start to think maybe this guy doesn't find me attractive anymore or, you know, or maybe he's doing it with someone else, and things like that go through their head.
PATIENT: Yes.
VINCENT: Your wife, she's not depressed?
PATIENT: She's - it didn't worry her for a while, but it's starting to now, I think.
VINCENT: Yes.
PATIENT: Like she's not all that interested in sex anyway.
VINCENT: Well, you know why that is, [Patient].
PATIENT: Yes.
VINCENT: Because of this problem. See men who have this problem - and they try to shy away from sex - the wife, after a while, maybe her libido goes down and they're not going to want to have sex, mate.
PATIENT: Yes.
VINCENT: Because they don't want to keep facing the disappointment every - imagine your wife - she tries to get it on with you, it doesn't go hard and then, if it goes hard it goes soft again. It's frustrating for them as well as you, [Patient].
…
VINCENT: The more - and your problem is the worse it gets, the more you think about it. The more you think about it, the worse it's going to get, [Patient].
PATIENT: Yes.
VINCENT: And it doesn't help the situation that your wife's trying to avoid it. It's going to really start to compound and, before you know it, mate, sex is going to stop. Is that what you want?
[ACCC 4.262, pp 5 - 7]
200 Salesperson Hanspeter said to patient 4:
HANS: Yeah. Have you got a girlfriend?
PATIENT: Yeah, I just started seeing a girl just not long ago.
HANS: That's why you want to fix the problem?
PATIENT: Yeah, pretty much.
HANS: Smart move.
PATIENT: Yeah.
HANS: Smart move. It takes a woman about 10 to 15 minutes to penetrate, like plain, not like oral, just penetration, okay. It takes a woman about 10 to 15 minutes to climax, yeah.
PATIENT: After penetration?
HANS: No, just with penetration. Let's say you just do intercourse with her, no oral sex, okay, no foreplay.
PATIENT: Yeah.
HANS: It will take her about 15 minutes to climax, so with one or two we are a bit shorter, aren't we?
PATIENT: Yeah.
HANS: Yeah. So it's good that you fix that problem, yeah?
PATIENT: Yeah, definitely.
HANS: Otherwise we don't look very good and we don't like that, do we? We want to look good.
PATIENT: No, it's pretty embarrassing.
HANS: Yeah, and also you will never get the woman reacting. Like, you can never get out of her, like to really move, man, to how she really is because she can't open up in that short time, you know. It's just not possible, yeah?
[ACCC 4.231, pp 3 - 4]
201 And salesperson Csaba said to patient 100:
CSABA: Premature - you know, it's all about control.
PATIENT: Yes.
CSABA: Normal guys - they can control how long they last. They can just keep going on and on and on for 10, 15, 20 minutes or even longer. They decide when they ejaculate, yes.
PATIENT: Yes, yes.
CSABA: If it happens within few minutes, without you wanting to, it does happen prematurely, that's why it's called premature ejaculation and so on.
PATIENT: Yes.
CSABA: Do you have a girl or are you married, [Patient]?
PATIENT: Yes, no, I'm married.
…
CSABA: Have you spoken to your missus about this at all?
PATIENT: Yes, yes look, it's a - yes, yes - yes, I have. It's - you know, we both sort of think that it would be good to do something about it, so here I am.
CSABA: Yes, no. It's much more fun for those guys who last, you know, 10-15 minutes or longer, as opposed to a few minutes only.
PATIENT: Yes.
CSABA: And that's how long it generally takes, you know, for a girl, for a woman, to get there and reach an orgasm, so important to keep her happy in the bedroom as well.
[ACCC 4.378, pp 3-4]