Ms Mao's Evidence about Her Ability to Negotiate
27 At s37 in her first affidavit, Ms Mao gave evidence that when she was negotiating the third agreement with Mr Kennedy, 'the focus was only on the price, and not on the other terms. Again, I did not get the impression I could not discuss the other terms, it was just that they were never raised'. The reference to 'again' is a reference to Ms Mao's earlier evidence about the negotiations leading to the first and second agreements. Her evidence about the first agreement was that she never felt the need to negotiate any of the terms in the 'Terms and Conditions' because she had been left feeling reassured by Mr Kennedy that any issues which arose would be smoothed over by him: Ms Mao's affidavit in reply at s6. In respect of the second agreement, Ms Mao said she was 'quite happy to sign' the agreement essentially because 'it all sounded reasonable - a longer commitment for a lower price'.
28 Ms Mao's evidence at s37 in relation to the negotiations leading to the third agreement is forensically significant because it suggests that Ms Mao perceived that she was not prevented from negotiating the Terms and Conditions with VTS.
29 However, the picture is complicated somewhat by Ms Mao's evidence in reply. In her affidavit in reply, Ms Mao said that during the negotiations leading to the second agreement she had sought to negotiate a number of non-price terms but had been rebuffed. This evidence consisted of three emails and Ms Mao's account of a conversation she had with an employee of VTS, Ms Jin Kyung Kim, which she says took place between the second and third of these emails. The first email of 26 September 2017 was sent by Ms Mao to Mr Kim and sought amendments to some of the non-price terms for what would become the second agreement. This email was as follows:
Dear Glen and Jin,
Thank you for the agreement. Our solicitor has proposed the following minor changes:
1. Initial term is for 60 months/5 years
2. Clause 14.2 - Once the period of 60 months expires, ACBI will need to say for another 12 months, please have this clause deleted and replaced with "if the Client does not give notice to renewal the Agreement before the expiry of the Term, the Agreement will automatically come to an end at the expiry of the Term."
3. Clause 1(z) - Replace with the words "Term means the Initial Term."
4. Clause 4 - VTS should not agree to proportionally increase their costs should ACBI increase their requirements. Eg, if they charge ACBI $9.50 per Chromebook and $75 per PC now, then in the future whilst on the same Agreement, they should stillcharge ACBI $9.50 per Chromebook and $75 per PC.
5. Clause 8.2 - change the meeting to monthly
6. Clause 11.9 - ACBI fees will remain unchanged during the term of the agreement
7. Clause 11.10 - VTS may increase their fees with 30 days' notice. I propose the following: "Should VTS increase their fees outside of clause 11.9, the Client will have 30 days to terminate the Agreement. Should the client not terminate the Agreement within 30 days, the Agreement will continue."
8. Clause 15 - the Client should be able to terminate the Agreement should VTS "strike" out 3 times (breach of contract agreement). We need the conditions reciprocated for ACBI should VTS go bankrupt etc.
9. Clause 15.4 - change to 14 days
10. Please change the contract to be between VTS IT and AIBI Holdings Pty Ltd (ABN: 83 619 923 125).
…
[errors in original]
30 Ms Kim responded the same day and said she had forwarded Ms Mao's email to VTS' solicitors and would speak to her the next day when she had heard back from them. This exchange occurred on the Tuesday. Ms Mao says that on the Friday, 29 September 2017, she had a telephone conversation with Ms Kim in the following terms:
Jin: I have checked with Glenn about the changes AIBI wants in the agreement. Unfortunately, these are standard terms and we will not be able to change any of them. All of our other clients have the same terms as well.
Me: Okay then, I guess I have no choice.
Jin: Alright, I will send an email to confirm that you agree to these terms.
31 Shortly afterwards, Ms Kim sent Ms Mao an email in these terms:
Hi Laura,
Thank you for your time on the phone.
Just to recap, you have confirmed that you agree to our terms and conditions and no longer wish to have them changed as suggested in your previous email.
With regards to changing the new contract to be between VTS IT and AIBI Holding Pty Ltd (ABN: 83 619 923 125), the business structure will need to be reviewed by our lawyers. We will come back to you on this once we hear back from our lawyers, hopefully soon.
…
32 There is a direct tension between this evidence and her evidence in chief that she was happy to sign the second agreement because 'it all sounded reasonable - a longer commitment for a lower price'. There is also an indirect tension between this evidence (which is about the negotiations leading to the second agreement) and her evidence in chief about the negotiations leading to the third agreement (about which she did 'not get the impression I could not discuss the other terms').
33 Ms Mao was cross-examined about her conversation with Ms Kim (where she says was told that it was not open to negotiate the non-price terms). The cross-examination went as follows at T72.35-18:
Mr O'Sullivan: It's just not true that you had a conversation with Jin in the terms you have alleged at paragraph 10, is it?
Ms Mao: It is very true.
Mr O'Sullivan: Okay?
Ms Mao: No, look, when I say it is very true, I'm not saying I agree with you. I said the conversation, it is very true.
Mr O'Sullivan: Yes. Well, okay. Well, then, if we go to page 658 - sorry - 659. You have requested certain amendment and you say:
Thank you for the agreement. Our solicitor has proposed the following minor changes.
Do you see that?
Ms Mao: Yes.
Mr O'Sullivan: And just over the page on 658, Jin says:
Just to recap, you confirmed that you agree to our terms and conditions and no longer want to have them changed as suggested in your previous email.
Do you see that?
Ms Mao: Mmm.
Mr O'Sullivan: And that's what you told Jim in the conversation you had with him. You told Jim words to the effect, "I agree to your terms and conditions and I don't want any changes to them", that's what you told Jin isn't it?
Ms Mao: That's correct, because I got rejected. I had got no other choice.
Mr O'Sullivan: Well don't - don't worry about the reasons why you felt no had choice. I'm just asking you what words you said so, to be clear, the words that you said to Jin, and I'm not really asking you why or what you thought they meant, the words you said to Jin in the conversation you have referred to at paragraph… were words to the effect, "I confirm that I agree to your terms and conditions and I don't wish to make any changes to them." That's -
Ms Mao: That's correct.
34 Over objection, I permitted Mr Soon to ask Ms Mao about this in re-examination. This exchange occurred at T76.46-79.11:
Mr Soon: Now, when did you have - what time did you have the conversation with Jin on 29 September on the telephone?
Ms Mao: The time is at lunchtime or - I can't exactly remember. I remember I was having the conversation in level 5, outside of our meeting room. I think I receive a phone call from her.
Mr Soon: Okay. Can you remember which came first: the email or the - or the telephone conversation?
Ms Mao: The email. I sent the email to her. Then she - she called me. She set it up.
Mr Soon: Right
His Honour: Hang on. Hang on.
Mr O'Sullivan: Could I just - I respectively object. I need to clarify which email is being referred to.
Ms Mao: Okay
Mr Soon: Okay
His Honour: So hang on a sec, Mr Soon. When you were being asked questions by Mr O'Sullivan, he asked you about the email of 29 September, which Jin sent to you at 12.12 pm. Do you remember him asking you some questions about that?
Ms Mao: Yes. Yes. Yes.
His Honour: And if you look at that document, which is at page three - 658 of the bundle?
Ms Mao: 658. Yes.
His Honour: And Mr O'Sullivan asked you about the sentence beginning with:
Just to recap, you have confirmed that you agree to our terms and conditions and no longer wish to have them changed as suggested in your previous email.
?
Ms Mao: Yes
His Honour: Do you see that?
Ms Mao: Yes
His Honour: And I think you agreed with Mr O'Sullivan - and, Mr O'Sullivan, please feel free to correct my recollection of what the answer was. I think you agreed with Mr O'Sullivan that because that's what appeared in Jin's email to you, you had told her during that - the telephone call that you agreed to the terms and conditions and no longer wishes to have them changed?
Ms Mao: Yes. That's correct.
His Honour: So do you remember giving that evidence?
Ms Mao: Sorry.
His Honour: Do you remember giving that answer to--?
Ms Mao: Yes.
His Honour: -- Mr O'Sullivan?
Ms Mao: Yes. Yes.
His Honour: So now, have you got your affidavit there?
Ms Mao: Yes.
His Honour: Paragraph 10 of your reply affidavit? Which page?
Mr Soon: 652.
His Honour: 652?
Ms Mao: Yes.
His Honour: Now, you see there you give a version of what you said to Jin?
Ms Mao: Yes.
His Honour: Okay. And it's different to the answer you gave to Mr O'Sullivan?
Ms Mao: What is different?
His Honour: All right. Mr Soon, you're on your own from here.
Mr Soon: Okay. Ms Mao, can you please check - could you please look at papge 658 of your affidavit which contains the email dated 29 September 2017?
Ms Mao: Yes.
Mr Soon: You've got that ---?
Ms Mao: Six ---
Mr Soon: -- clear in your head, right?
Ms Mao: Yes.
Mr Soon: Okay. Now, you will see at the second sentence it says:
Just to recap: you have confirmed that you agree to our terms and conditions and no longer wish to have them changed as suggested in your previous email.
Can you see that?
Ms Mao: Yes.
Mr Soon: All right. Going back to page 652 ---
Ms Mao: Yes.
Mr Soon: --- Can you see at paragraph 10 ---
Ms Mao: Yes
Mr Soon: --- You have said that you have had a conversation ---
Ms Mao: Yes.
Mr Soon --- and in certain words?
Ms Mao: Yes
Mr Soon: And those words are said there; right?
Ms Mao: Yes.
Mr Soon: Now, the question I want to ask you is: what caused you to write the email which is at 658 of your affidavit?
His Honour: That doesn't make sense. She didn't write the email at 658.
Mr Soon: Sorry. Sorry. I apologise.
His Honour: Why are your two versions different, Ms Mao?
Mr Soon: Yes. Why is what's said in 10 different to what 658 says?
Ms Mao: It's not different. It's - the sequence is: first, I sent the email to - on 26 September, Tuesday 2 pm, to Jin and Glenn, to ask for the term changed. Then I had a conversation which is in my affidavit at 10 saying she has changed - she has talked to Glenn. So that's - she said we can't change it. So I said, "Okay then". So then she want to confirm what our conversation is, so she write me again in the email to confirm what was - we talk about on the phone. This the sequence.
Ms Soon: Okay. Your Honour, I think that's as far as I can take it to assist with any clarification.
35 So Ms Mao's evidence was that there was no difference between what Ms Kim's email recorded as having taken place in the conversation and the evidence she gave about that conversation at s10 of her affidavit in reply. I do not accept Ms Mao's evidence about this. The latter involves Ms Kim telling Ms Mao that negotiation was impossible, the former does not. That conclusion nevertheless leaves unresolved how this aspect of Ms Mao's evidence is to be approached.
36 In his closing address, Mr O'Sullivan submitted that Ms Mao's sworn evidence in her first affidavit was that in relation to the negotiations for the third agreement, 'the focus was only on the price, and not on the other terms. Again, I did not get the impression I could not discuss the other terms, it was just that they were never raised'. The Applicant had neither sought not to read that part of her affidavit nor to elicit evidence in chief from Ms Mao that the statement had been made in error. Both of these points are correct.
37 In his closing address, Mr Soon submitted that I should conclude that Ms Mao's initial evidence had been given in error. The error was to be inferred from the fact that several matters showed that Ms Mao had, in fact, sought to negotiate the non-price terms in relation to the second agreement and had been unsuccessful.
38 This submission centred on a complaint that Ms Mao had made to the Fair Trading Commission sometime in 2019. I was not taken to the terms of this complaint. However, it appears that following the making of the complaint, the Commission wrote to VTS which in turn provoked an email from Mr Kennedy to Ms Mao on 2 September 2019. An exchange of emails ensued. Mr Soon submitted that this exchange of emails showed that Ms Mao had attempted to negotiate cl 11.9 of the Terms and Conditions to the second agreement. Clause 11.9 provided for an increase in the fees due to VTS by the CPI on each anniversary of the contract.
39 Mr Kennedy's email of 2 September 2019, which informed Ms Mao that the letter had been received from the Commission, does not touch upon this topic but does bristle with a certain degree of annoyance. Ms Mao's response to that email did touch upon the CPI in these terms:
Firstly, our service discount rate was not locked in for five years as promised. Prior to signing the current agreement I asked you to give me the discount rate you gave Educo, and you stated that because I was not a long term member, I was not entitled to this discount rate unless I sign up for a new five years' service agreement. I did sign a new five years' agreement without any hesitation. Last year I did get a waiver for the increase but this year Sharon insisted that I have no choice but to accept it. I have checked with my accountant and was told this year's CPI is lower than the rate of the increase you charged me. I am very disappointed that not only have you overcharged me, but that even charged this increase at all.
40 Mr Kennedy's response to Ms Mao's email dealt briefly with the CPI issue in these terms:
If the recent price rise implemented by VTS IT indeed varies from the actual CPI increases, I would be happy to review this. As for the implication that VTS IT has overcharged you - that is ridiculous. You are receiving, and have always received, a significant 50% discount.
41 In response Ms Mao said:
In terms of the price increase and your "review", you can let us know what the outcome is and not just state you will review.
42 Mr Kennedy responded 'Price increase stands no need to review it'.
43 I do not accept Mr Soon's submission that this contretemps should be regarded as an attempt by Ms Mao to negotiate cl 11.9 of the Terms and Conditions of the third agreement. It is a complaint by Ms Mao that the clause was not being correctly applied. Consequently, I do not accept that this evidence is capable of providing support for his submission that I should understand as erroneous Ms Mao's evidence in her first affidavit that she did not get the impression that she could not negotiate the terms of the third agreement. Indeed, given that Ms Mao could easily have been asked in chief whether she wished to correct this aspect of her evidence and was not, it seems to me that I should conclude that her initial evidence was not in error.
44 That leaves unresolved the inconsistency which exists between this evidence and her evidence in reply where she says she was told by Ms Kim that the terms of the second agreement were not open to negotiation. Because this was given as evidence in reply, VTS was given no opportunity to call Ms Kim to give evidence about what had been said. However, Ms Kim's contemporaneously written email does exist and it does not contain any reference to what Ms Mao now alleges that Ms Kim said. Counsel for VTS nevertheless put to Ms Mao that the conversation with Ms Kim had not occurred in the terms that she suggested in her reply affidavit. Ms Mao denied this.
45 I consider that Ms Mao's evidence in her first affidavit is more reliable than the evidence she gave about Ms Kim in her second affidavit. I am not affirmatively satisfied that the conversation which Ms Mao alleges took place with Ms Kim did take place in the terms Ms Mao suggests. Consequently, I am affirmatively satisfied that her evidence in her first affidavit was not in error. I therefore conclude that in relation to the third agreement, Ms Mao did not get the impression that she could not negotiate its terms.
46 Mr Soon also relied upon four answers given by Ms Mao under cross-examination. The first of these was at T47.18-26 and was in these terms:
Mr O'Sullivan: At the time of this email ---
Ms Mao: Yes.
Mr O'Sullivan: The only thing you were worried about in terms of VTSs service was the service discount rate not being locked in for five years, the instalment payments for equipment and the Chromebooks. They were the only issues concerning you about your relationship with VTS?
Ms Mao: No. No, not - I can't say that. That is, like, quite a major concern, but I can't say, like, only issues, because there might be other issues. But at this stage, I can't remember other issues. But here and there there were other issues, yes.
47 I do not consider that this assists AIBI. The second was at T48.16-26:
Mr O'Sullivan: Okay. But it's the case, isn't it, that during the almost six years of the business relationship between VTS and AIBI that VTS has only ever increased prices in line with what it says is the CPI rate or to pass on third-party software provider licence fee increases at cost. They've been the only price increases under the three contracts, haven't they?
Ms Mao: That's not exactly my impression, because my impression, six years, the relationship with VTS is sometimes they increased things the way they want and they have the power to do it. We have no power to say no. And there's always reason they had this. They always say because of this. Even we said the CPI increase was - like, there's no increase overall. But they still have the reason behind this. This way, we feel like we don't have power. They always have a superpower to us.
48 The most compelling part of this answer is Ms Mao's evidence that she had no power to say no to the CPI increase. However, I do not consider that this assists AIBI. Unquestionably, AIBI had no power to prevent VTS from increasing prices in line with the CPI because cl 11.9 permits VTS to increase its fees by any amount including by the amount of the CPI. It does not follow, however, that this means that when Ms Mao was negotiating the terms of the third agreement that AIBI had no bargaining power.
49 The third was at T53.1-5:
Mr O'Sullivan: Okay. But there was no reason why you could not have raised any concerns about the terms and conditions of the third agreement that appear at pages 421 to 425. If you just have a look at those. If you had any concerns about those terms and conditions, there was no - nothing to stop you from raising those concerns with Glenn, was there?
Ms Mao: I think I raised these things in my agreement 2 and I got rejected, so I didn't bring it up again.
50 In this answer, Ms Mao attributes her failure to seek to negotiate the non-price terms in relation to the third agreement to her unsuccessful attempt to negotiate them in relation to the second agreement. However, as I have explained above, I do not accept Ms Mao's evidence that she was told by Ms Kim that the non-price terms for the second agreement were not up for negotiation. Once that evidence is rejected, it follows that this evidence must also be rejected. I have considered whether this evidence provides some basis for revisiting my conclusion above that Ms Mao's evidence about the conversation with Ms Kim ought not to be accepted. I do not think that it does. By the time of Ms Mao's reply evidence, the need to show that Ms Mao felt she had no ability to negotiate the non-price terms had become obvious. Matters were no different when she was cross-examined.
51 The fourth was at T58.1-5:
Mr O'Sullivan: And the only issue concerning you in September 2019 was the price and not the terms and conditions of the - any contract. That's right, isn't it?
Ms Mao: It - it seems like I was always concerning discussion between me and Glenn with the pricing, and actually, that's not the only thing I concern. I concerned a lot of things but I was limited. I'm only able to negotiate with him is the pricing and the term.
52 To the extent that this suggests that Ms Mao wished but was unable to negotiate the non-price terms, I reject this evidence. I do so for the same reasons given in the preceding paragraph.