Statements made by an accused in a record of interview are evidence against the accused, himself, but like all other statements made in the absence of someone, they are not evidence against anybody else. So you can't use anything that is in Ahmed Raad's record of interview as inculpating, or rendering guilty anyone else in this trial. It's only what he said about himself.
There are a number of matters in that record of interview I should draw your attention to. If you are going to note them, they are all numbered questions and I will note them. He was able to identify all of the other accused with varying degrees of familiarity. That is not evidence against any of the other accused. It's evidence against him of associating with them, because he concedes that he knows them. That is as far as that goes. They are questions between questions 67 and 119.
There are questions asked of him about a number of different topics. At 130 he said that about a year and a half ago he became religious. Before that, he wasn't overly religious, he was "into sex, drugs and rock and roll" as he put it. At 141, he said, "I class myself as a Muslim." At question 148, he was asked, "Okay, what's your opinions in regards to jihad?" And he said, "Yeah, nothing wrong with that."
Then he discusses jihad with the police officer in terms of self-defence. The police officer says, "When, then, in your opinion, [is] jihad for the defence of the religion justified?" At question 154. "If youse come to my house for no reason like youse did and you try to shoot me, but which youse didn't do, I would obviously try to fight back. That is called jihad."
At question 167, he gives a long answer to a question. "There are people who are engaging in Islamic jihad." That's what the police officer says in an interrogative form. The answer is, "But the ones that are doing the wrong thing, their wrong, obviously ... (reads) ... bombed on while they are asleep". Then at 158, he says, "I'd agree with that."
He is asked about sites on the internet and he says there are thousands of sites. At 174, "What is your view or understanding of a terrorist act?" And the answer is, "Killing innocent people." Later on at 178 he suggests that, he accedes to a proposition that if a bank robber goes into a bank and shoots the teller, is that a terrorist act, and he says, "Yeah."
Between questions 183 and 189, he talks about justification for terrorist acts and says he doesn't know whether a terrorist act is justified in Australia or not. He's not learned enough to be able to say.
At questions 198 to 226, there is a discussion about the sandooq, the fact that people put in, and he is asked, "What's the money used for?" At question 214. He says, "Oh, just to help anyone that's in need."
Further on, he's asked about court fines, and he says, "No, unless they haven't got the money to pay it. They pay it back. If they are really bad in debt, they can't pay it, then what can you do?"
He was asked at question 205, "Have you kept details of who has contributed to the sandooq?" He says, "No." And at 200 he was asked, "Have you been involved in either setting up a sandooq or running a sandooq?" He says "Yeah." 201, "And how long have you been operating a sandooq for?" "I don't know. ... (reads) ... just come to me and I do it."
Question 227, he's asked "Have you kept records?" "No." "None at all?" "No." He's asked, "Who needs to give permission for money to be used from the sandooq?" He says, "The sheikh." "Why is that?" ... (reads) ... giving money to anyone."
That is not evidence against Benbrika. It's evidence only of Ahmed Raad's knowledge of the sandooq and its workings.
The questioning goes over to a group. At question 240, this is referring to Benbrika, "If he told you to set up a sandooq, you'd do that?" Answer: "Yeah, for the right reasons." 241: "If he told you to set up a sandooq for the group that he was setting up, would you do that?" Answer: "What group was he setting up." Question: "The group that Benbrika has established for the purposes of committing a terrorist act?" Answer: "I don't know of no group." He's questioned at 248, "Do you refer to you and your brothers as belonging to a jemaah?" Answer: "Not really." Question: "Would you refer to you and your brothers as the jemaah?" Answer: "No."
Then he's asked further on about using the internet. At 286, he's asked, "Do you think Islam is under threat in Australia?" "Yeah." "For what reason?" Answer: "For killing innocent people." 288: "Whose killing innocent people?" Answer: "The soldiers." Question: "Australian soldiers?" "Yeah." Question: "And where are they doing that?" Answer: "In Iraq." Question: "Okay, anywhere else?" Answer: "Probably, I know, I know, where the Americans, Australian soldiers are." Question: "So your opinion is fairly strong in regard to Australian troops being overseas?" Answer: "Yes.
A couple of questions further down, the next question, "Do you think they should come home?" Answer: "Yes." Do you think they should be punished?" "Yeah, not all of them. The ones that done the right thing done the right, the ones that done the wrong, they done the wrong." "How do you think we can get the Australian troops to come home?" Answer: "I dunno, I'm not in politics."
At 307, he's asked about his views on stealing, dishonesty. At 308, he says, "Obviously you can't do it." 309: "What about criminal behaviour in general, deceptions and fraud?" Answer: "Obviously you can't do that, too." Question 318, "Your personal opinion, do you think, would you commit criminal acts to raise money for the purposes of jihad?" Answer: "I don't commit criminal acts."
There is a conversation at 330 and following about the bayat. At 333, "I put it to you that you have given the bayat to Benbrika, what do you say about that?" Answer: "Well, I don't know, I don't remember."
He was asked about Ocean Grove, whether he went with others to Ocean Grove on a Friday night in February, and he says, "I don't remember, I've got a bad memory."
Question 350, "Have you been involved in criminal activity to raise money for the sandooq?" "No."
He was asked then about the garage conversation at 357. "Do you recall in September last year being in Ezzit's garage with Aimen Joud and discussing a stolen car?" His answer is, "Are you seriously wanting me to remember that?" 358," Do you steal cars often?" Answer: "No." "Do the other jemaah members steal cars often?" Answer: "I don't know." A couple of questions down, "Do you think you would remember that or forget it?" Answer: "No, I remember about the stolen car, don't worry about that." And then says he went to court for it, says he didn't steal the car, he doesn't know who did. And he's asked, "How did you get charged for it?" He said he had gone to court for it. He said it was parts in my garage. "For what purpose was the car stolen?", at 369 Answer: "I have no idea." He's asked further about the garage conversation and eventually the police officer says at 378, "You are denying this conversation took place?" Answer: "Yep, well, I don't remember it." Question: "You don't remember it?" Answer: "No." Question: "Does that mean it didn't take place or you don't remember it?" Answer: "Well, I reckon it didn't take place." That is repeated a couple of times, and so it goes on to the end.
The answers to that record of interview are admissible as evidence against Ahmed Raad...[245]