But when it comes down to you picking up your presentment and saying - and that sheet of paper that I gave you yesterday which sets out the elements and sets out the self defence proposition which the Crown have to have you reject - those are the things which when you agree, in whatever way you agree, on a set of facts, it is those elements and that rejection of self defence. They are the things that have to be proven beyond reasonable doubt.
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I might say in passing that [Counsel for the accused] never put to [the complainant] that he had a weapon. That he had any sort of weapon at that time. He never had the opportunity to provide an answer to you on that particular point. That may have been an oversight. It is still within your hands to make a decision on that proposition. I mean, that is one point. It would become quite significant because it might have a significant bearing on the issue of proportionality. That is one factor.
Another factor in dispute is whether - no doubt Mr Said had - either had a knife or a bottle or some weapon. It is clear that he must have had some weapon he could not have done it with his fingernails. He presumably had a knife or a bottle or a broken bottle or a broken glass.
Again, it may have some significance in relation to proportionality but your decision on those matters may not be determinative of the charges.
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Proportionality may vary depending whether he had a knife or a bottle or you may not think it does. It is a matter for you. I do not know that that matters all that much. Whether [the Complainant] was armed or not may be quite important, of course, and that is something you will have to bear in mind.
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I have explained self defence yesterday. It is set out for you there. You must remember the Crown must have you reject it beyond reasonable doubt. Did he believe on reasonable grounds that it was necessary for him and his self defence to do what he did? The answer to that question is going to depend, of course, on what you find happened, and that is very much in argument between counsel; you may disagree, but it seems to me not to matter too much, maybe marginally, but not too much, whether it was a knife or a bottle. I suppose both are capable of causing wounds of significance. As I say, it is a matter for you, you may disagree, but it may not matter much to you whether the accused had a knife or a bottle. So that is one of the decisions you will have to look at, but whether it has great significance to you is a matter entirely for you; it is not for me.
Whether [the complainant] was armed or not is, I would think again it is a matter for you, but to my way of thinking that is a far more important matter because it affects the extent to which the accused might be entitled to act in a certain way. You may well think what is proportionate, what is reasonably proportionate in response, may vary considerably, depending on whether [the complainant] is armed or not. It is entirely a matter for you.
Of course it is unnecessary, I know, I hardly need say it, but if there is to be some sort of confrontation, fight, between two young people, and if [the complainant] is unarmed, I would expect a jury, any jury, to at least think that the other person would be entitled to throw some punches; whether he is entitled to use some arms to inflict injury is another matter, it is a matter for you.
As I said, under No.4, when you are considering the proportionality of the response, you have got to look at the threat posed, and that will vary depending on whether [the complainant] was armed or not, of course, but you look at the threat posed, and you look at the response. Well, the response was to wound him, as we know, he was wounded with either a bottle or a knife, one would think, so you look at the threat posed, you look at the response, and you ask yourself, well, in all the circumstances, was that generally proportionate? It does not have to be identical, it does not have to be weighed up with undue nicety, but was it, viewing it in a practical way, was that a proportionate response, or was it going over the top in all the circumstances; that is what you would have to ask yourself.
As I say, that will vary depending on what your ultimate view of the surrounding facts is, as I indicated yesterday in the analysis that I gave you, which is not binding on you, but I mean if [the complainant] was always the chaser/aggressor, of course - and particularly highlighting the period when the confrontation under the awning occurred, if [the complainant] was always the chaser and aggressor and was still the chaser/aggressor at that point, I would expect you would say to yourselves, well, he is entitled to do something in his self defence, the accused, and the only issue then really is, well, is what he did, which we know what he did, perhaps not what with, but generally we know what he did; is his response proportionate to the threat of it?
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If you accept the other version of the facts, if you accept the version put forward by [the complainant], the two girls, and by Mr Boyle, that the accused was the chaser/aggressor and that [the complainant] was being chased and that he tried to respond, firstly by throwing the glasses to slow him down to try and get away, but that failed and then in the ultimate confrontation, he is still the one being chased and the accused is still the aggressor; if that is the view you take, well, it is hard to see that self defence arises at all in those circumstances because you are not dealing with the situation of a threat being posed by [the complainant] at all if you accept that version of the facts. Then, of course, I gave you the hybrid version but in the end it really comes down to who was the aggressor at that final confrontation. That may depend on your view about who was the chaser earlier but it really comes down to who was the aggressor at the last confrontation. If it was [the complainant] bailing the accused's up, your question then is, well, was the accused's response proportionate to any threat posed by [the complainant]. You have to be satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that it was not, it was not proportionate before you could convict. If you are satisfied that it was a disproportionate response beyond reasonable doubt then you should convict. If you are not satisfied that it was a disproportionate response beyond reasonable doubt then you should acquit.
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You could accept that [the complainant] was the aggressor and chased the accused and still convict if you are satisfied, as I have explained, that ultimately the response that the accused's came up with was disproportionate and I have been through that.
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In relation to the injury counts they relate to the stabbing incident or the wounding incident. You have to - there is no issue that the wound was caused by the accused. The first thing you have to decide is whether the Crown has discounted or have you reject self defence beyond reasonable doubt. Either because it does not arise at all - that is one basis on which you may reject it, that it does not arise at all because [the complainant] was never a threat to Said. It was Said who was the aggressor or alternatively, if you do not accept that, if you accept that Said was entitled to do something in his self-defence because of [the complainant's] behaviour then, the issue for you to consider is the proportionality.