Media training interview
63 Most of the evidence about these events came from Penguin's answers to the s 126(1) Notice, and documents provided by Penguin in response to requests by Consumer Affairs Victoria. On 23 September 2014, Ms Gibson attended a media training session with employees of Penguin. She was "interviewed" by a Penguin employee for approximately 1.5 hours, for the purposes of promoting the book and to assist Ms Gibson in preparing for the kinds of questions she might get from the media on the launch of her book. During this interview, Ms Gibson made a number of statements in relation to her health. She spoke about when she claimed to have had a stroke, when she had been diagnosed with cancer, and the various treatments she claimed to have undergone to address her health issues. This media training interview was not publicly available until it was tendered in this proceeding. In this proceeding it was available in both video and transcript form.
64 An excerpt of key parts of the transcript of the media training interview is set out below. The interviewer is not identified by name in the transcript, and is known only by the pseudonym "Ms B". "Ms A" refers to another Penguin employee who attended the interview. The passages in italics are my emphasis.
MS GIBSON: …that's where I had - you know, my cancer diagnosis came about when I was in that role.
MS B: In Perth?
MS GIBSON: Yeah.
MS B: So what happened?
MS GIBSON: I had a stroke at work and was being abused on the phone by someone, one of these corporates who I had a pretty close relationship with, and he was assuming that I'd come to work drunk or, you know - and, 'How dare you come with this level of professionalism? It's just so unlike you,' et cetera et cetera et cetera. That took me, like - that took me back, you know. I'd never been that person. I entirely skipped that part of childhood, being that rambunctious, you know, loose teenage persona, and I was just really offended and I remember the looks, the looks that I was getting from those that were sitting in my office and kind of it was like, 'Can they hear the conversation or is something really happening?' and then I fell off my chair and came to and went to the doctor's and they said, 'You've had a stroke.' Then it was about a week later, where the cancer diagnosis - - -
MS B: So were you in hospital? Did they put you in hospital?
MS GIBSON: No. Like, I had a stroke and they're like, 'You've had a stroke, you're fine.'
MS B: Really?
MS GIBSON: Yeah.
MS B: Did you do lots of tests?
MS GIBSON: Yeah.
MS B: Yeah.
MS GIBSON: So I was in there for the day. I wasn't in there for a long period of time and then I was diagnosed with cancer and, yeah, that just very quick domino effect of everything to come, you know, of - I lost a lot of my short-term memory and I reflect back on that now, where I was losing that memory before the stroke and was still kind of shady after that. But then that job started to fall apart as well. Like, my whole life started to crumble, and I'd held it together- - -
MS B: So when they said you had cancer, what did they say to you?
MS GIBSON: It was this arsehole doctor who I'd been seeing for a few weeks beforehand.
MS B: Was he part of the hospital? Which hospital was it?
MS GIBSON: St John of God's in Perth. He's a doctor that I'd been seeing for a while and I had gone to him a few times and I said, 'Something's not right. Vision's getting blurry,' you know, 'I'm feeling a little bit all over the place,' and that's when he, you know, dug through the family history and said, 'You've got depression and you're working too hard.' I said, 'I'm not working too hard.' Like, clearly I thrive on what I do... I'm really passionate about what I'm investing my time in. I know that I don't have depression. You know, I acknowledge that my mum does but that's not my story. You know, pre the stroke, I went and got my eyes tested and they're like, 'Your vision is pretty fine but if you're certain, then we give you glasses anyway.' I'm like, 'Why are you giving me glasses if you're telling me my vision's fine?' and rolled with it anyway and wore glasses which I feel made it worse. Had the stroke, got the cancer diagnosis, went back and saw the same doctor.
It's like what I wrote about in the book. I was, you know, really hoping for him to apologise and he didn't. I was hoping for him to say, 'We're sorry we didn't listen to you,' and he didn't. He just looked at me and he said, 'You've got a GBM brain tumour and you've got six weeks to four months to live.' I was in the room and I was alone and I just brushed it off, you know, and I don't know whether it was that residue from the stroke or whether it was just being a really defiant young woman still and just didn't care.
…
MS B: Did they propose a treatment schedule for you?
MS GIBSON: Yeah, there was, and I kind of just left it at arm's distance and went back after I'd made the acknowledgment that I need to do something about it and that doing something was the typical look for the best, you know, and that - I had age on my side, you know, the always 'you want the best in life' kind of thought process and the best was in Melbourne, so that saw me uproot again, from Brisbane to Perth, Perth to Melbourne, and that's where I, you know, set up home again and started treatment here in Melbourne.
MS B: So where was your treatment?
MS GIBSON: Peter MacCallum.
MS B: How did that unfold?
MS GIBSON: So I moved from Perth to Melbourne. I was living with one of my best friends, someone who I went to high school with and it still took me about two weeks to really acknowledge why I had moved here. I kind of made myself believe for a few weeks that I was here to support him through his kind of "I don't know what I'm doing with my life" kind of journey, because I had nothing better to do, and then it kind of hit me again, 'Oh, that's right, you actually have your own stuff to deal with.' So off I went, took my referral and then ended up with a double whammy, chemo and radiation treatment and - - -
MS B: And you were in the Peter MacCallum?
MS GIBSON: Yeah.
MS B: Yeah. What were the doctors there saying? Was their story any different from the first doctor?
MS GIBSON: No.
MS B: No?
MS GIBSON: No, the story was the same and my team, they were very nurturing. They were very nurturing in the way of 'there's this young woman who's come from nowhere and has no-one' and they were all really worried. I knew that I was taking their worry on board and it was probably just adding to the layers. But in between this treatment, you know, I was opening up a little bit more, you know, and the blindfold was coming off and I was kind of going, 'How can I support my body through this process?' Then I was looking at naturopaths and acupuncture and traditional Chinese medicine and looking for stories of other people who had supplemented.
…
MS B: Did you take a job in Melbourne when you got here or you---
MS GIBSON: Yeah, I ended up taking a job until I realised I shouldn't be working. You know, I was still very much in denial. I took a job - one of my 30 first jobs when I was in Brisbane was curating an art gallery which was part gallery, part cafe, and took that training and management stuff and went and helped curate galleries around Melbourne. I was doing three, but then had a moment where I was on a ladder and dizzy and, you know, when you've got a tumour in the middle of your brain, you're not a very balanced person, not very rational thinking either, but I was up there trying to hang and nail holes into walls and I was like, 'This is dangerous, you shouldn't be doing this.' It was a five-storey terrace building in Brunswick and climbing those really tiny stairs, like, running up and down them all day, yeah, it's just a bad combination, so I left.
…
MS GIBSON: Yep. I would have been 21, yeah, about six months after my diagnosis now. And then- so I was not working at all and then was travelling up and down in between treatment, and I went through about three months' worth of treatment and realised that it's not my thing.
MS B: Conventional treatment?
MS GIBSON: Yeah.
MS B: Yeah.
MS GIBSON: Felt much more empowered. Whatever the outcome was going to be, I felt more empowered to treat myself traditionally, through traditional medicine, was really comfortable with the idea of dying and thought I'd prefer to much - much prefer to try and extend my life even by a little bit through traditional medicine rather than save it with conventional medicine and live like a really happy healthy life even if it's for a shorter duration. That was my chosen reality at the time.
…
MS B: So what were you travelling? Why were you travelling up and down the coast?
MS GIBSON: Looking for support?
MS B: You mean medical support?
MS GIBSON: Medical support. Just looking for - like the weirdest or kookiest healers and also just looking for quality of life. You know, 'I want to explore, I want to enjoy, I want to eat good food and be looked after.' Australia has an abundance of that. You know, we-- -
…
MS B: So while you were seeking those other therapies, were you still having the chemo and the radiation?
MS GIBSON: Yeah.
…
MS B: So you'd stopped that treatment by that stage?
MS GIBSON: I had stopped treatment by that stage, yeah, pre becoming pregnant.
MS B: Right. So you'd stopped the conventional cancer therapy?
MS GIBSON: Yeah.
MS B: And then you were following alternative therapies?
MS GIBSON: Following alternative therapy.
…
MS GIBSON: I just break it down to the simplest always: I am pregnant. Women get pregnant. Their bodies know what to do. You know, I have cancer. Cancer is an illness. I'm going to treat and heal myself through this, you know. Like, just be really simple about it all and when you're simple about it and rational about it and break it down to those bite-sized digestible pieces, it's not overwhelming.
MS B: So, Belle, looking at what you've announced on your social media, you've said that the cancer is now in your blood and your spleen and your brain and your uterus and your liver. That's really- it's serious now, isn't it?
MS GIBSON: Yeah. I'm going to get tested for ovarian cancer. I no longer have cancer in my uterus. Woo-hoo - - -
…
MS B: You look really well.
MS GIBSON: I know. Like, my photographer today has been living with liver cancer for 20 years and you would just never know. It was hard to see that reflection, going, 'Whoa.' You would never know. You know, sometimes you do know with me. You know, I'm like this big and puffy or I have a rash which makes me look like I've got chicken pox. It's important to be honest about these things and it's great that we have things like social media where I can be honest and do shed light into what's happening behind those perfectly filtered photos. Not everything is as it seems. And when I'm not, you know, at my local tea shop for, you know, my morning cup of tea, or when I'm not posting on social media or when I'm not the one picking Ollie up from school, I'm most likely in bed or I'm most likely laying on the couch because I've just had a series of seizures, you know. That's the stuff that people don't see or feel comfortable to talk about and that's the reality of it all. Right now I've got a really stabbing pain in my stomach which I want to crawl to the floor with but it's just that we've not been allowed or empowered to talk about it for so long that all we do see is what media shows us cancer is or what media shows us dying is, and why can't you die gracefully? Why can't you enjoy that?
MS B: Do you think you're dying?
MS GIBSON: Yeah.
MS B: You feel like you're dying?
MS GIBSON: Yeah, and I'm fine with that, and it's conflicting for a lot of people. Like, I don't think I'm going to die tomorrow but my body is dying. Like, of course it is, you know. It might be a really slow 10 years but parts of me are shutting down and we only see, you know, really traumatic childbirth, really traumatic death, you know, really traumatic car accidents, and everyone handles it differently but it's also a choice. Like, I don't choose to feel victimised by this.
65 Later during the interview, Ms Gibson makes statements in relation to donations made to charities. These statements are made in response to questions from the interviewer, on the basis that the media may be interested in auditing the charitable donations, and therefore this is a line of questioning Ms Gibson should be prepared for. An excerpt of this part of the transcript is reproduced below. Again, the italics reflect my emphasis.
MS B: Belle, one thing you've been very vocal about is giving a lot of the money to charity.
MS GIBSON: Yeah.
MS B: It could be that one of the financial newspapers wants to audit that.
MS GIBSON: Mm'hm.
MS B: Could you facilitate that process?
MS GIBSON: Yeah. At the moment, because we've just changed structures, we're getting all our books tidied. Yeah, but probably could in six months, once I get my shit together.
MS B: Because if you're saying that you're giving money to the Asylum Seeker Resource Centre and One Girl and Birthing Kit Foundation, people want to know, you know, what's going on.
MS GIBSON: Mm'hm.
MS B: So that's something you could be asked too.
MS GIBSON: Yeah.
MS B: Yeah, about all that.
MS GIBSON: Easy.
MS B: So what would you say? You know, how did you select the charities? How much money have you given? What's the financial trail?
MS GIBSON: Each- we choose our charities each quarter.
MS B: Mm'hm.
MS GIBSON: So so far we've given to nine charities and they're chosen pretty much based on conversations that happen through our social media channels, tapping into what people are really passionate about at the moment, communities, organisations, families, people that they feel need functional support, you know. We don't donate in typical ways. You know, a family might need $10,000 and they'll go, 'Oh, this family is doing a money-raising drive. They need $10,000,' but I'll be the one that reaches and go, 'Well, what do you need that $10,000 for? Where do you need that support and where is it going?' and in many ways it's been, 'Well, we need money for vitamin C injections for our son who's living with cancer.' 'Great, we'll pay the bills that come in for that,' you know, or, 'Our child has a brain tumour. He can't regulate his own body temperature. We need an airconditioner.' 'Great. Here's $6000 for airconditioning.'
[I note Ms Gibson expresses all these statements in the present tense, as if the conduct she describes has already occurred.]
MS B: So a Good Weekend journalist would say, 'Can we talk to some of these people?'
MS GIBSON: Yeah.
MS B: 'Can we talk to people at the charities that you've helped?'
MS GIBSON: Yep.
MS B: They would want to flesh out that side of the story with the charity.
MS GIBSON: Mm'hm.
MS B: Because that's---
MS GIBSON: Yeah.
MS B: ---you know, a remarkable thing that you do and they will want to see evidence of that and - - -
MS GIBSON: We- the stories behind it.
MS B: Yep.
MS GIBSON: And we call it 'functional donation' because it's, like, more of a commitment to going, 'We want to create an actual change,' rather than just going, 'Here's some money. We're turning our back on it now,' and then it's also beautiful because then I can go back to my community going, 'We've just bought this person this because you've done this for your own life.' Yeah, it's nice.
MS A: And are they people that you've sort of continued relationships with?
MS GIBSON: Yeah. Some of them have got acknowledgments in the book. You know, like- yeah, I'm constantly looking for ways we can continue to support them as well. It's not, "Oh, here's $10,000, we're done now," it's- I'm really hopeful that that communication line stays open and if they need something, they can come back. We might - you know, with one girl, right now we have to focus on building the app back up, making more money to give more money back in. So it's, "Please just wait. You're at the top of our list. We're building this toilet and this toilet. This is our commitment, but this is when it's going to happen." You know, "In the meantime, is there anything else we can support you with?" So lots of commitments to- we don't get paid until every three months, so, you know, "If you need it now, that's fine, but we can't support you for another 11 weeks."
MS B: So you're saying the Apple money comes through every three months?
MS GIBSON: Yeah. Like, you know, we're operating a start-up at---
MS B: Who's "we", Belle?
MS GIBSON: Well, that's what I wrote about in the book too, 'we' as in the community. I am operating a start-up, but at an acceleration level of a big company…
66 The interviewer later returns to the topic of charitable donations, and how Ms Gibson should respond to queries about her donations. This is the exchange:
MS B: I think that you really need to get your story straight about the charities.
MS GIBSON: Yeah.
MS B: Okay. They're going to go there with that.
MS A: Yeah.
MS GIBSON: They can go there.
MS B: Yeah, yeah. But just say, 'I've given this much to these charities.' Get a spokesperson from one of the charities to say, 'Yes, we've worked with Belle and she's made a real difference.'
MS GIBSON: Yeah.
MS B: I think we really need to underpin that---
MS GIBSON: Yeah.
MS B: ---that part of it.
MS A: And it's a nice part to the story anyway.
MS B: Exactly.
MS GIBSON: It's beautiful. It's just like through Cambodia and Indonesia. Not all of them speak English, so it's more about maybe getting them to send pictures or - - -
MS A: Are any of them in Australia?
MS GIBSON: Pardon?
MS A: Are any of them in any of the---
MS GIBSON: The Asylum Seeker Resource Centre is.
MS A: Okay.
MS GIBSON: Yeah. We're working on an event. That's what I was workshopping at Claire's thing.
MS A: Oh, okay.
MS GIBSON: Yeah. But they're- that's about it. I want to start doing something in Palm Island which is nice, but lots of the families actually are most of the families are Australian based and they're nice stories to discuss.
MS A: Okay.
MS GIBSON: Because they're really tangible, and they'd be willing to talk as well.
MS A: Even if it was just sort of one, one or two really.
MS GIBSON: Well, it was funny because I was at- for Josh [Schwarz], was at one of his fundraisers and I didn't even know how they knew me, but the local news, Channel 10 and the local paper, it was like, 'Belle Gibson's here,' you know, 'to support,' blah blah. Like, it was the first time that I've been really creeped out that they - - -
MS A: People are watching you.
MS GIBSON: Yeah. It was like, 'How did they know that I was there?' and like, I was clearly there, but like they felt the need to publish it because, you know, it had been very open that this family had received money from us and, you know, my whole community invested in his story, you know, as well, yeah.
67 Towards the end of the interview, Ms Gibson returns again to the topic of charitable donations and makes statements about the large percentage of profits that are donated by her company to such causes:
MS GIBSON: But away from- yeah, away from the craziness which is nice. I don't know. It's hard for me to go to Bali because it just feels so considered now. You know, like, there's big boutiques, you know, where they've got big signs where it's like, 'We donate 1 per cent of our profits to cleaning up Bali beaches,' and I'm like---
MS B: Too late, she cried.
MS GIBSON: --- 1 per cent? On our worst month, where I think, like, our worst month where we made, like, $700 or something on the app, we still donated 25 per cent of that and the rest went to bills to fix the bugs.
MS A: Is that kind of normal, around 25 per cent?
MS GIBSON: No, like, some months- you know, our first quarter, it was like 95 per cent.