3.4 The hearing before the Tribunal
38 A transcript of the hearing before the Tribunal on 13 October 2014 was in evidence before the primary judge (AB340-372). There was no suggestion that the transcript did not accurately record what was said at the hearing. The appellants each gave evidence to the Tribunal with the assistance of an interpreter in English and Punjabi, NAATI Level 2 (AB258). The appellant's representative was not present in circumstances which I presently explain (AB258).
39 At the hearing, the Tribunal began by interviewing Mr [BEG] in the absence of Mrs [BEG] after explaining to them both the purpose of the hearing (AB341-342). After questioning Mr [BEG] about the appellants' claims to fear harm from Mrs [BEG]'s family, the Tribunal member raised the question of whether they could enter and reside safely in Nepal in the following passage. (I note that, given the importance to what transpired at the interview, I have set out the relevant passages in full.)
PM Oh, okay. Alright, the other issue then that I have to talk about with you is this. If you have, if you need protection from serious harm or significant harm in India, I have to consider whether you have protection in another country, other than Australia. Now, there is, this is probably something you have not thought about before, but I need to talk about it with you. That is the treaty between India and Nepal, the Treaty of Peace and Friendship.
It allows people who are citizens of either country to enter and live in the other country, without a visa. So in other words, you, it seems to me that you have an existing right to enter and live in Nepal.
TR for [Mr [BEG]] We have been here seven years, living in Sydney. The baby is born here as well. They are well settled here now with family. Even if they go to Nepal, if they find them there, then they can go to India as well.
PM How would they find out you were there?
TR for [Mr [BEG]] Because the airport has links to Australia
01:05:12
PM Okay, but they won't know you're in Nepal.
TR for [Mr [BEG]] We have to get another visa, if it's for India or Nepal.
PM Well, okay, they might, you don't mean the uncle is sympathetic to you? You mean the husband of the woman?
[Mr [BEG]] Yes.
PM Even so, they have got no influence over, and no contacts in the Nepalese police force.
TR for [Mr [BEG]] The police in Nepal are the same, they are corrupt. They are all the same.
PM They are corrupt, yes, there's a lot of corruption, but nevertheless, your wife's relatives in India wouldn't have any contacts there. They wouldn't be able to do in Nepal what they have done in India.
TR for [Mr [BEG]] No, but they can go through the police, and they have got contacts there in Nepal.
PM Maybe. I think it's less likely, don't you? It's probably much more difficult for them to get away with that.
01:06:41
TR for [Mr [BEG]] But that's risky.
PM Yes. The fact is, if you flew to Nepal, then okay, they might find out at some point that you've done that, but you would have already entered the country. So you wouldn't be picked up at the airport there.
TR for [Mr [BEG]] [Unclear] What if they find out afterwards. Then what? What will happen to our child.
PM Okay, that's something that I will have to think about. I know it's not something you have thought about before, so this is new to you. But anyway, it's something I will think about.
(AB at 359-360)
40 The Tribunal then asked Mr [BEG] if there was anything he had not told the Tribunal that he thought was important, to which Mr [BEG] responded "Just that we've been here seven or eight years and we've got a child here as well. It's going to be very, very difficult" (AB360). An exchange then occurred during which the Tribunal Member advised Mr [BEG] that if he found that Australia did not owe him protection, Mr [BEG] could ask the Minister to allow him to stay in Australia anyway. The Tribunal member also advised Mr [BEG] that he did not have to use the migration agent who Mr [BEG] said gave him poor advice and could change the address for correspondence. The Tribunal member also referred Mr [BEG] to a list of free immigration services (AB361-362).
41 Mr [BEG] was then told to stay outside with their son while the Tribunal questioned Mrs [BEG] (AB362). The Tribunal member also questioned Mrs [BEG] about her and her husband's claims to fear harm if returned to India, before questioning her on whether they could live in Nepal as follows:
PM All right. Well, the third issue is one which you and your husband may not have thought about, but I'm required to consider this issue, and that is whether you already have protection in another country, and whether you have an existing right, a current right, to enter and live in that country.
Now, the country that I'm thinking of is Nepal. Because India and Nepal - as you probably know - have a treaty which allows citizens to go backward and forwards to live in each other's country without a Visa. And so, discuss this with your husband, but I will have to consider - even if it might cause you a lot of hardship to go and live in Nepal - I will have to consider if you could live there without being seriously harmed.
00:24:55
TR for [Mrs [BEG]] I don't think that if we return there we can escape them. And even so, Nepal's sort of close and a part of India as well. Even if we go, but we would always be in fear.
PM Well, just tell me what problems do you think you might have if you were in Nepal. You said you'd always be in fear, what do you think might happen?
TR for [Mrs [BEG]] We can't live their [sic] openly… There will always be a fear in our minds that we would be located and harmed.
PM And how might you be located there?
TR for [Mrs [BEG]] They can find us, it's very nearby.
PM Well, you know, the thing is that you've talked, and so has your husband talked about their contacts with the police in Punjab, and that they're rich; so yes, the police is corrupt in India, so… but your relatives don't have any contacts with the police in Nepal, it's a different country.
And they wouldn't even know that you were in Nepal.
TR for [Mrs [BEG]] The world's a small place and if someone was [inaudible].
PM Well, if they didn't suspect… or say, if they thought you were in Australia, for example, they wouldn't be looking for you in Nepal.
TR for [Mrs [BEG]] It's about their honour, someday they'll find out.
PM Yes, I understand it's about their honour, and I understand they might be quite motivated to do something bad to you; the question is whether they could if you were in Nepal. I mean, tell me, if you think that they could, you need to tell me how could they.
TR for [Mrs [BEG]] [Sound slip] parents are also in Amritsar. My husband also cannot now go to Punjab, and he hasn't been back to India because of me. You can't get a fake ID, you've got to get a proper one.
PM To do what?
TR for [Mrs [BEG]] If my husband wants to talk to his parents, for anything, for a phone or a SIM Card, you need an ID, you need an ID for work.
PM Yes, but if you were in Nepal, what would you need.
TR for [Mrs [BEG]] But we can't take that risk whether it's Nepal or anywhere else. If it was just the two of us, but we've got a little baby who is only eight months old.
00:29:05
(AB370-371) (emphasis added)
42 After also explaining to Mrs [BEG] that even if not owed protection obligations, they might ask the Minister to allow them to remain in Australian on humanitarian grounds, the Tribunal member then brought Mr [BEG] back into the interview saying:
PM: … I wanted to give you some time to think about whether there was anything more you wanted to say?
TR for [Mrs [BEG]] Just everything … all these questions about what's happened to us.
PM Yes, was there anything else that you want to say?
TR for [Mrs [BEG]] No.
(AB372) (emphasis added)
43 The interview closed with the Tribunal member explaining that they could advise reception about what they want to happen with their mail and ask for a recording of the hearing if they want it, and that:
… I will carefully consider everything you've said. I appreciate your situation. I don't see any reason to doubt what you've said is the truth, so I'll really be thinking about what your circumstances might be if you go back to India and I'll also have to consider that issue about Nepal that I've discussed with both of you.
(AB372) (emphasis added)
44 Importantly for present purposes, while the Tribunal member was appropriately concerned to advise the appellants about what steps they could take to change the address for correspondence given their difficulties with their agent and to raise with them the possibility of requesting intervention by the Minister on humanitarian grounds if the delegate's decision was affirmed, there was no suggestion by the Tribunal that they could or might put on any submissions or evidence concerning the Nepal issue after the hearing. To the contrary the member stated that she would have to consider that issue which she had discussed at the interview with them, giving the impression that it was not a matter in which the appellants could have further input.