Mr Upton's evidence
51 Mr Upton's evidence at trial was to the following effect.
52 As to the position and duties he had at material times, in his affidavit he said:
3. Prior to 2008 I was employed by Downer Engineering as a crane driver. I was working on the North West Shelf LNG Phase V Project in Karratha.
4. Since early 2008 I have been employed by the Construction Forestry Mining and Energy Union (CFMEU) as an organiser.
5. Until July 2016 it was my job to organise union business in the North West area of Western Australia on behalf of the CFMEU.
53 As to the Gorgon Project, he stated as follows:
6. Part of my role was to organise Chevron's Gorgon Project on Barrow Island. In 2015 there were thousands of workers on Gorgon working for multiple companies and the site was around the size of Perth's CBD city block. At various stages of the job there were between 5 thousand and 8 thousand workers on the project.
7. To speak to workers on the island I needed to exercise my right of entry by giving notice I was going to the island and what group of workers I wanted to speak to. Because of the logistics of getting flights to Gorgon and getting the information about meetings to workers on such a large site, the CFMEU and CKJV agreed that we would put in my right of entry notices 7 or 8 days in advance, instead of the usual 24 hours' notice. CKJV management would send out notices to workers for pre-start meetings on the day, telling workers where I would be. Pre-start meetings are where management tells workers what they are doing for the day and deliver any messages. The CFMEU delegate would also put notices up in the crib rooms telling members about my visit. Attached and marked 'BU1' copies of posters titled 'CFMEU Union Meeting' & 'Up and Coming Union Meetings'. They are examples of the kinds of posters the delegate would put up. Every work group (between as low as about 5 workers up to about 100) has a pre-start meeting. There was always another crib room available next door to where I was, for people who didn't want to come to listen to me. There were hundreds of crib rooms on the project.
8. Because my visits to the Island were limited and spread out, I relied on the union delegates to sign up members between my visits.
54 Mr Upton further said, by way of background to his visit:
9. The companies on Barrow Island had enterprise agreements (EBAs) that expired in 2014. The CFMEU had been in discussions for replacement agreements since around the end of 2013 to beginning of 2014. Towards the end of 2014 the companies put up a proposal but the workers voted it down.
10. The main area of disagreement about the EBA was the fly-in/fly-out roster for workers. The expired EBA's had a 26 and 9 roster, meaning workers were rostered on site for 26 days and then rostered off for 9 days. Workers wanted to change that to a 20 and 10 roster to get more days off because they had to fly home in their time. Some people spend a couple of days travelling to get home after working the last day of their shift and then spend time travelling back to site before their first day on shift. Workers with families end up spending 2 days travelling and miss out on spending quality time with their kids and partners. When they are on shift, it can be very difficult for people to even speak to their kids on the phone because they aren't allowed phones on site and by the time they finish working it's close to bed time for kids living in the eastern States.
11. The CFMEU and other unions were having negotiations directly with CKJV (CBI and Kentz Joint Venture) and there were discussions in the Fair Work Commission. Around the middle of 2015 there was a vote of CBI members to take protected industrial action.
12. The protected industrial action was set for the middle of September. There was quite a lot of anger from workers about the EBA towards the companies. There was even disagreements between different sets of workers. For example, the day shift workers thought the night shift workers were being soft on the roster issue because they got to fly home on the morning of their last day on shift rather than having to wait until the end of the day. There was a degree of competition between day shift and night shift about whether one group was better than the other. The night shift gets paid 25% more and gets more time off between shifts. This is a real topic of tension between the night and the day shift. Right through the EBA process there was also lots of anger coming from union members towards non-members. This is not something that I personally encourage. My personal view is that aggressive behavior towards non-union members discourages them from joining the union. My personal aim is to educate people about why it's good to be in a union. That is the easiest way for me to keep members - that way they join for life rather than job to job.
13. There were still negotiations going on until the day before the protected industrial action was set to start. Finally an agreement was reached. The union's view was that if we took protected industrial action, we may have ended up with a less good agreement. The unions cancelled the protected industrial action and recommended to the workers that they vote for the agreement. I was immediately instructed to visit Barrow Island to give the message to members that it was time to vote up the agreement.
14. I thought we got the best we could and the agreement had excellent conditions compared with everywhere else in the Northwest. The roster was changed to 23 and 10 and had 5% wage increases. I was quite proud of what we had achieved. In the end I think 85% of workers voted for the EBA.
15. After the vote for the EBA, the union was getting some feedback from members on the Gorgon Project that there were complaints about the union agreeing to the EBA without having a strike. I heard there were some people who wanted to have industrial action to try to get a better roster and some that wanted to have a blue just to punish the company.
55 As to the right of entry on 3 December 2015, he stated:
16. The reason for going on site was part of the process of promoting the EBA to our members and explain the union's position about cancelling the protected action and recommending the agreement, and to deal with reports of the members who were cranky we had signed the EBA before taking protected industrial action. I put in a right of entry notice for 3 December 2015 (attached and marked BU 2) using the standard CFMEU right of entry form for Gorgon. The form mentions discussions with any employee who the CFMEU is entitled to represent. This is just the standard form. My reason for the visit was to talk to union members about the agreement.
17. At this time CBI's work at Gorgon was about to wrap up, and an issue on site was also who was going to be the first group of workers to be demobilised. Demobilisation of workers is the process for reducing the amount of workers on the job as the work scope reduces.
18. As usual, to make the most of the plane flight and the day on site I planned to have as many discussions with members on the day as possible. That's why the notice mentions night shift, morning break and lunch break. Because morning and lunch breaks are staggered there was 2 morning break meetings and 2 lunch break meetings.
19. For each of the meetings, I expected there would only be union members there. It wasn't my job to sign up new members . That is something delegates did while I wasn't there. When I went to the island my job was to talk to people who were already members. This time, I was there to talk about the new EBA, explain the union's position and hose down the cranky members. Also, I didn't think that there would be non-union members there, because management send out notices of where I'll be so non-members can make arrangements to use the other crib huts that are available. I wouldn't know if they are in a union or not, or if they are in a union, what one it is.
56 He said, in relation to the nightshift meeting, as follows:
20. First up in the morning I met with the night shift crew who had waited around to speak with me after their shift that finished earlier in the morning.
21. As planned, I spoke about the …
22. At some point during this discussion one bloke raised his voice and bought up a …
23. I had heard this rumour before but I didn't think it would come up at the meeting because the feedback I was getting was there was a group of militant members who were angry the protected action didn't go ahead. I didn't know if there were any actual resignations from the CFMEU.
24. Several other people were yelling lots of stuff about … . There was lots of … . There was quite a bit of anger on this topic and it went on for about 10 minutes.
25. In the end I said … . I just wanted to find out if there was any truth to the rumours that 90 people resigned. I don't have authorisation to access the CFMEU's union member records. I need to ask someone who is authorised if I want to check anything. I didn't have a list or any names of possible members who might have resigned. Sometime after I came back from the Island I rang the office and asked if there were any mass resignations. I was told there wasn't.
26. Another topic I wanted to talk about was who was going to be demobilised first. I knew people were anxious about being laid off. Members had previously asked me to find out who was going to be demobed first. Some people said … . Other people said … Everyone on Gorgon wanted a way to make someone else to go before them.
27. To move the discussion on, I started … Workers were also raising another issue about …, and then the meeting finished.
28. Workers writing other workers names on toilet doors was very common on Gorgon and lots of other construction sites in the Northwest. It was not something that was organised or promoted or encouraged by me or the union. It was just something workers did when they got behind a closed door. I've seen a lot of the same kind of thing when I was working as a crane operator. I knew it was an issue because CKJV had asked me to speak to my members about it. I agreed to speak to them, but because I expected people would keep writing stuff anyway, I had suggested to CKJV management that they paint the toilet doors with chalk-paint like on some other gas plant projects, so that it could be wiped off each day. It doesn't stop people from writing stuff, which is pretty hard to stop, but it does mean it can be cleaned off really easily each day.
57 He then gave direct testimony as to what he said, as adverted to in [21] of his affidavit, as follows:
Now, at that night-shift meeting, what was the first matter that you spoke about?---So to go to the island for the EBA and to congratulate everyone on a good EBA. It was a long EBA but good; also to say about the good wages and conditions, and also to discuss about a few people that were upset about not taking the protected action.
58 Mr Upton gave direct evidence about what one bloke said, as adverted to in [22] of his affidavit above, as follows:
If I can take you to paragraph 22. At some point during this discussion, one bloke raised his voice and brought something up. What was that?---He brought up that there was a rumour on site that 90 people had resigned out of the union and - I don't feel at ease saying this, but he said that that there was nothing but a bunch of dog - 'fucking cunts', to be honest with you.
59 Mr Upton then gave direct evidence about what several people said, so far as [24] of his affidavit was concerned:
Several other people were yelling lots of stuff out. What were they yelling out?---So a few people were still yelling out, 'You fucking dog cunts.' And then there was a fair bit of swearing and people were saying that we should write their names on the back of the toilet doors, or the dunny doors.
60 Mr Upton gave direct evidence about what he said in response, which was left out of [25] of his affidavit:
How did you respond?---I said that there are actual rumours, said that I would check and see if there had been any mass resignations from our branch.
61 Mr Upton gave direct evidence about what other people said, as adverted to at [26] of his affidavit:
You've - your evidence is that there was another topic that you wanted to talk about which was demobilisation. What did people say about demobilisation?---In the night-shift conversation, it was pretty clear that ..... saying that 'fucking dog cunts' should be the first to go. That was one part of the meeting. And then the other part of the meeting said that RCR and Tempo should be the first to go.
62 Mr Upton then gave direct evidence about what was left out of [27] of his affidavit:
You've said to depose to move the discussion on 'I started -' what did you - - -?---So another big part of - because of what time of the year it was - it was coming up to Christmas breaks, which we've had a lot of problems with in the past.
So we - so we moved in the new agreement to get better wording for that. So we got better wording in that. So we were discussing about - that it would be easier for people to take Christmas break, because they weren't permitted to before, and just end up - I take a lot of merchandise and that up to the island in a suitcase and try and get rid of that as well. So - - -
So what did you say about the merchandise?---Just that we sell a lot of - so when we go up on the island, a lot of people - - -
Sorry. I will just clarify that question?---Yes.
What did you say to the meeting about the union merchandise?---That I had brought it up to sell. So - - -
63 As to the meeting in the main crib room at 10am, he stated in his affidavit:
29. For the 10am morning meeting there were delegates from the CFMEU, AMWU and ETU there too. CBI want the other delegates there because they like to have an industrial relations meeting with the delegates and myself from all the unions after any union right of entry. Delegates would also follow up on those issues with management after I was gone.
30. I was the only union official there and the only one with union insignia on my clothes. Workers at Gorgon weren't allowed to have any union insignias on their work clothes or helmets. Chevron didn't allow officials from 2 unions to have right of entry meetings at the same time. The only exception to this was when Chevron invited the union Secretaries to come on site to talk up the vote for the EBA. I don't know what workers attended and I don't usually make or keep lists of workers who attend my right of entry meetings.
31. Again, it was my intent was to explain and promote the union's position on the EBA to current members. Before the meeting started I spoke to the delegates about … . They asked me to … . It was very common for me be asked to report what people from a previous meeting were saying so that people from all the shifts can have a say on the same issues. It doesn't mean I agree with it.
32. The first topic that I addressed was …
33. Then I raised the … It was common for me to report issues raised by nightshift workers to the day shift workers. It was part of my job. Because of their rosters they didn't have contact with each other so I was the point of contact between them.
34. I remember that other workers at the 10am Meeting were yelling out … .
35. At paragraph 17 and 18 of the statement of claim, they allege I made threats to non-union members. I don't remember exactly what said, but I'm sure I didn't say what they say I said. I agree I used some of the same words, but actually I was reporting to the 10am Meeting what was said at the nightshift meeting. I said 'fucking dog cunts' and that workers wanted to put the names of anyone who resigned after the EBA was signed on the toilet doors because that's what they said at the Nightshift Meeting.
36. I didn't threaten anyone. I didn't say anything in a way that meant I was telling anyone to do something or I was going to do anything to them, because my intention was just to report back from the previous meeting.
37. I wasn't saying anything to non-union members. I didn't think there were any non-union members there. When I said 'union site' I meant a site where the union had done the EBA. I was talking to members about how the union had achieved the EBA and that non-members don't want to go to sites where the union hasn't done the agreement because the union gets better wages and conditions. Again, I wasn't telling anyone to do anything.
38. I didn't say to anyone that they should go somewhere else or they were not welcome. Whatever I said to do with anyone that might have resigned was just reporting what had been said earlier in the morning.
39. I didn't say that I or anyone was wanting to use stand over tactics against nonmembers. An issue of the companies bringing in labour hire during the EBA negotiations was raised. Someone from the floor said … . This had also come up at the night shift meeting and previous meetings. I remember I said something about … .
40. I didn't say anything in an aggressive tone. I do speak passionately. The room was large and there were about 50-60 people in the room, so I had to speak up so that everyone could hear me. Several people were yelling out the same stuff like in the previous meeting. I had to speak loudly to be heard. You have to take control of the meeting.
41. I didn't want to force people to leave Gorgon because they weren't a union member or force them to join the CFMEU.
42. My intention was to promote the EBA and the Union to members and to point out that it was the union that managed to get the better wages and conditions in the EBA and to say that people who didn't think the EBA was good enough should try working on a site where the union hadn't negotiated the agreement and see how good the terms and conditions were there. My intention was to communicate to members that this was a great agreement as I thought that there would only be union members at the meeting, and I wanted to promote the EBA and Union to those members.
43. The issue of … was also raised by someone on the floor. Some people were … There were RCR and Tempo workers that were members of the CFMEU. There was no way I could influence who would be demobilised first.
44. Again, I also spoke about …at the end to wrap the meeting up. There were also more questions about … . The EBA had improved conditions so people had more of a right to take annual leave at Christmas. Then the meeting finished.
45. I do swear a lot and it's common for workers to swear in the construction industry. In my experience, workers and bosses on Gorgon swore a lot when they talked to me and each other, including at right of entry meetings. I hear swearing all time and it is a common way for people to relate to each other in a non-aggressive way on construction sites.
64 As to what Mr Upton spoke to the delegates about and the other things adverted to at [31] of his affidavit, he gave direct testimony as follows:
Before that meeting started, you spoke to delegates about something. What was that?---Yes. I spoke to them about the night-shift, with the rumours that was put up about 90 people quitting the union and that the boys were very angry, and said about 'you fucking dog cunts' and writing their names on the back of toilet doors and that.
Just could you clarify what you said. When you said the boys were very angry, which boys were you talking about?---Well, the members, as in, like, because of the - not getting the protected again. So they were annoyed about that and - and it was a day shift. Is that - is that the question you're asking?
Let me ask you another question?---All right.
When you - before the meeting started, you spoke to the delegates?---Yes.
And could you just state what the delegates said - what you spoke to the delegates about?---Yes. Okay. So I spoke to the delegates about the previous meeting, which was the night shift, and I always get asked by the day shift to give a report back of what the night shift were doing. So I gave them a report back on some of the things that were said.
And in particular, what things?---Well, as I said, it was about the rumour of people resigning - 90 people resigning out of the union.
And what did they ask you to do?---If I could report that back to the day-shift meeting.
65 As to the first topic that he addressed, adverted to at [32] of his affidavit, he gave the following direct evidence:
What was the first topic that you addressed at the 10 am meeting?---Was about the EBA, the new agreement, congratulating everyone on the day shift of a good job and also about the good wages and conditions and the reason, you know, behind not taking the protected action and asking them to vote up the agreement because there was a few people out there were a little bit angry about not taking the protected again.
66 As to the question he raised and adverted to at [33], he gave direct evidence that:
Now, you've given evidence that the first topic that you addressed was the enterprise agreement?---That's correct.
After you had addressed the enterprise agreement, what matter did you raise at the - - -?---Sorry. Can you just repeat that again.
After you had addressed the enterprise agreement - and you've given evidence that you addressed - that you congratulated people and that you spoke about the good wages and conditions and that there were some people who were upset that protected industrial action hadn't been taken?---Yes. Yes.
Now, after you had spoken to the meeting about those matters, what matter did you raise next?---Would have been the demobilisations.
If you just take a moment, Mr Upton?---Yes.
Take a moment to read paragraph 33?---Yes.
So your evidence is that you spoke to the day-shift meeting about the EBA?---Yes.
And did you then raise another matter with them?---About the people resigning out of the union and - and the comments that were made.
Could you be a bit more precise about what you raised with them?---Yes. So it was raised that people in the night shift were quite upset with people resigning and called them 'fucking dog cunts' and - and swore a bit about that.
67 As to what he remembers other workers yelling out, as adverted to at [34] of his affidavit, Mr Upton gave direct evidence as follows:
What were other people saying?---There was people in the day-shift meeting that were saying very similar things: that they were fucking dog cunts as well, to be honest with you, and that we should stick the name up behind the toilet doors.
68 As to what someone from the floor said, adverted to at [39], Mr Upton gave the following direct evidence:
Now, your evidence is that an issue of company - your evidence is - well, it has been said that you spoke about standover tactics. What did you say?---It was brought up from the floor. The floor actually said - one of the people on the floor said about the company bringing the two labour-hire companies in, Tempo and RCR, that that was a form of standover tactics, in their - in their eyes, so that when they went on protected action, that their labour would be replaced by them and it's a standover tactic, and I just replied with, 'If we did standover tactics, we would end up in court.'
69 As to the issue raised and what some people said, as adverted to at [43], Mr Upton gave the following direct evidence:
Now, your evidence is that you had spoken to the members about the EBA and about the rumour and about a reference - there was a reference to standover tactics?---Yes.
Was there another issue that was raised at that meeting?---Demobilisation.
And what did people have to say about that?---Obviously, there was people that were a bit angry with the demobs and that and they brought up, in different splits again, about demobilisation of - a couple of people said, "The dog cunts can fuck off in the first lot of demobs or RCR and Tempo." I followed up with - because the questions had been asked previously at meetings prior to that day, and we have IR meetings afterwards with all the delegates and the union official that's there, and the IR manager at that stage said to us - the question was asked back to that meeting and it was clear to us that they said to us that Tempo and RCR will be the first to be demob, so I passed that on in that exact fashion.
So you passed that onto - - -?---The day shift.
70 As to what Mr Upton said, as adverted to at [44], and the further questions he said were asked, referred to there, he gave the following direct evidence:
Now, were any other matters raised at that meeting?---Yes. Again, it was the Christmas break, because we were leading into Christmas, and the problems that we had had with taking the Christmastime off was really important to everyone that worked out there. So we - we brought that up, telling them that in the new EBA, that we had put some new wording in there that made it a bit easier for people to try and get off at Christmastime, and also get the merchandise. So - - -
And also?---With the merchandise. That - one of my duties is to get our merchandise out there and sell it to the rank and file.
So just to clarify, you - what did you speak about finally?---So the merchandise - the CFMEU merchandise.
71 In cross-examination by senior counsel for the Commissioner, Mr Upton:
Agreed that in the lead up to the meetings on 3 December 2015 he took the view that the Gorgon Project was a union site, based on a union agreement.
Rejected the proposition that he was not happy that there were workers on that site who were not union members.
Accepted, however, that prior to 3 December 2015 there had been EBA negotiations on the site and said that he had been involved in them to a "very small amount" but agreed that the CFMEU was involved.
Rejected that he was involved in getting workers to join the CFMEU, but delegates of the CFMEU were.
Said it was incorrect that he knew that one of the sub-contractors, Tempo, had workers who were non-union.
Also said he did not actually know who was a union member and so rejected the proposition that RCR had mostly non-union workers.
Rejected the proposition that he was unhappy in the lead up to the 3 December meeting that there were so many workers on site that were non-union.
Agreed that prior to 3 December, there had been recently signed an EBA.
Said he did not know that the day after the signing of the EBA 90 of CFMEU's members had resigned from the union.
Agreed, however, that it would be a "significant thing" if 90 members had resigned after an EBA was signed.
Rejected the assertion that he had heard of the rumour of members resigning before 3 December.
Agreed that if he had heard of the rumour prior to 3 December, given the significance of the suggestion of 90 members resigning, he would investigate that.
Denied that, as at 3 December, he was clearly of the view that 90 members had resigned and expressly denied "that was the truth of the situation".
Also denied that, as at 3 December, he was fuming that there were non-union people enjoying the conditions on the site.
Denied that he took the view that non-union workers were free-riding on the conditions that had been secured by the CFMEU.
Denied that he was of the view as at 3 December that if one were a non-union member - a non-union worker - he or she either had to join the union or get off the site.
Denied that he took the view that non-union workers on the site were "fucking dog cunts".
Agreed that prior to 3 December he had heard the expression "fucking dog cunts" before. He said he had heard it in both a context of people referring to non-union workers but also on a social basis.
Said he had, prior to 3 December, used that expression himself to non-union workers, but also on a social basis.
Said he had, prior to 3 December, used that expression himself, but denied he had used it with reference to non-union workers.
Again expressly rejected the assertion that his view as at 3 December was that non-union workers on a union site were "fucking dog cunts".
Expressly denied the proposition that when he organised the right of entry to go on to the site on 3 December, his purpose "was to deal with the situation of non-union workers being on what you view to be a union site". He rejected that that was why he organised the right of entry.
Also denied that he had the full approval of people higher up in the CFMEU to exercise the right of entry for that purpose. He said that was "untrue".
Agreed that there were some 50 to 60 people at the meeting.
Knew there were workers from Tempo and RCR at the meeting, and he knew there were labour hire working for labour hire groups and that one of the reasons they were there was in the event that any protected industrial action should take place.
Rejected the proposition, however, that part of the view of why Tempo and RCR would cover jobs of people who were striking was that that they were substantially non-union subcontractors.
Again, denied that as at 3 December he knew who the people who had resigned were.
Also said it was incorrect to suggest that, normally, if there was to be a union meeting at the Gorgon Project, they were not held in crib huts, but in other specified areas.
Said it was correct that workers were usually told at the pre-start meeting that there would be a scheduled union meeting, but said he did not know that that did not occur on this occasion.
Said it was "very incorrect" to suggest that he organised the meeting to be in the crib huts to maximise the chance of unsuspecting non-union workers attending the meeting.
Was taken to the notices of meetings usually issued by union delegates that he had produced as Annexure BJU1 to his affidavit, which did not relate to the 3 December meeting, but denied that he was unable to produce any notices of the 3 December meeting issued by delegates because there were not any.
Denied that he knew there were going to be a lot of non-union workers at the 10am meeting on 3 December.
Confirmed what he said in his affidavit, that he did not like to be aggressive towards non-union workers and he tried to educate them.
Again denied that his attitude was that this was a union site and non-union workers were taking the benefit of those conditions.
As to what occurred at the 7am night shift meeting, he denied that it was him who had told the meeting that 90 "fucking dog cunts" had resigned, and that what he was trying to do in his evidence was distance himself from what he did that day by suggesting that he was merely repeating what other people had told him at the earlier meeting.
Was cross-examined in particular about what he had said at [23] of his affidavit and having "heard this rumour before", and denied that the rumour he was talking about was that 90 union members had resigned after the EBA had been entered into. He said that the rumour he was talking about was that people were upset with the union not taking the protected action.
Denied that, in fact, he had just made up the whole idea of a rumour and knew that 90 people had resigned.
Said it was correct that he was suggesting that he actually used the word "rumour" at the 10am meeting and denied that he never did.
As to the persons "up the front" at the meeting, he said there were delegates from the CFMEU, two or three, and delegates from the AMWU, but denied that there was a union official wearing an insignia. He said there were delegates from the ETU as well. He denied that there was an official from the ETU with an insignia.
When asked whether he was planning to call any of the CFMEU delegates who were at the meeting, said it was not his job to do that and denied that he was not calling them because he knew he would be exposed as a liar.
Agreed that someone introduced him at the meeting by saying words such as "Can I have everyone's attention … this is Brad … he's from the CFMEU … he would like to have a word with everyone".
Denied, however, that at the outset of the meeting he spoke about the "fucking 90 dog cunts".
However, agreed that he did in the meeting use the words "fucking 90 dog cunts" but did not agree he did so at the outset.
Also denied that he said - whenever it was actually said - that "the fucking 90 dog cunts that resigned from the union the day after we fucking signed the EBA".
Implicitly agreed, however, that he did deal with the topic of the "fucking 90 dog cunts" by responding to the question of whether he did by stating "Reporting back".
Said he made the point in the context of saying it had occurred the day after the EBA had been signed, and agreed it was possible that when he spoke about the EBA that had been signed he referred to "the fucking dog signed EBA".
Said it was incorrect, however, that when talking about the "fucking 90 dog cunts" he made the point, "after we got the conditions we got now".
Agreed, however, that he spoke about conditions but did not agree that he spoke about the fact that the CFMEU had secured conditions for the site and the resignations had occurred after that.
Said it was incorrect that he then said "this is a fucking union site".
Agreed that he did use the expression "union site" during the meeting and denied that he had used it numerous times, roughly twice maybe three times.
Said he could not be too sure on whether every time he said "union site" he in fact said "fucking union site" and agreed it was possible that he did so.
Said it was incorrect, however, that in the context of talking about the "fucking union site", he said, "if you don't fucking like it, fuck off somewhere else".
Accepted it was part of the conversation that he made the point at the meeting if people do not like a union site they should go elsewhere, and agreed throughout the meeting that he regularly used the word "fucking".
Said it was incorrect, even though it appeared he had already agreed to it, that he spoke about that people who did not want to be at a union site should go elsewhere. But then, when the matter was clarified, said it was part of the conversation at the 10am meeting that if people did not like a union site, they should go elsewhere.
Said it was incorrect that when he talked about people going elsewhere, he was talking about people who were not union members. He said it was incorrect that when he spoke about people going elsewhere, he put it in terms of "fuck off".
Said, however, he had used the expression "fuck off" and when asked if he ever used that expression at a meeting, agreed and supposed that he would have. He said "not in my recollection" but that it was possible that he used it at this meeting.
Said he did not make any notes of what he said at the meeting, he agreed it was quite possible - "I could have" used the expression "fuck off".
Denied, however, that telling someone to "fuck off" is saying they are not welcome. He agreed it was "part of a discussion" that at the same time there was talk about people going elsewhere and about being a union site, he also spoke at the meeting about the fact that it was the CFMEU that had got the conditions for the site. He agreed it was quite possible that he said "we got you these conditions".
Also said it was incorrect that, as Mr Keevers had said, he had stated "We know who you are" - that is, who the 90 people were that had resigned.
Said if people did resign from the CFMEU he was not able to work out who they were, but said that the CFMEU is able to work out who resigns from the union.
Agreed that he could ask for certain information concerning resignations but rejected the proposition that he could check records or other union records to see whether someone was a union member or not.
Said he would not say that saying something like "We know who you are" would not be said unless someone was intending to make a threat. At that point he was taken to [37] of his affidavit and asked whether he used the expressions "Non-members" at the meeting - in contradistinction to "fucking dog cunts" - and said he would have.
Even though his affidavit did not include swear words, said that he could not say that he "never swore through the whole thing, no". He said he could have sworn in relation to things stated at [37] but rejected that he would have done so aggressively.
Agreed that one of the selling points for a union is that the union can get workers better wages and conditions and that is a reason for joining. He said it was incorrect, however, that he made the point and was addressing those comments to non-union members who he knew were in the audience.
Said it was incorrect that what he said at [37] was an attempt to completely sanitise what were aggressive statements made to non-union members at the meeting.
Denied that he was aggressive, had a threatening tone or an aggressive body language, or that what he had to say came over as a "rant or a spray".
Said he never said that "we're going to put your names on the back of toilet doors" but agreed that when he was "reporting back", he spoke about toilet doors and names being put on the back of them.
Agreed that it was a form of abuse on the site to have someone's name scrawled on the back of a toilet door - noting that his name had been put there "quite a bit".
Agreed it was effectively telling others not to treat those people with respect.
Considered it was a hypothetical question whether there could be a risk that union workers who take a poor view of non-union workers may treat those people more poorly.
Also considered it hypothetical that there was a risk a person would get exposed as a non-union worker and would be treated by others onsite as a "fucking dog cunt" because he did not work there.
Said it was incorrect his account of the nightshift meeting given to the 10am meeting, was a complete whitewash of what had occurred.
As to what he said at [28] of his affidavit, concerning his advice to management to change the finish on the toilet doors to deal with graffiti problems, that seemed inconsistent with him now saying that he was reporting back at the 10am meeting that people were talking about putting people's names on the backs of toilet doors; said it was incorrect that that would have simply encouraged the practice.
Was not sure when that management discussion took place.
Said he did not think it was appropriate to call a non-union worker a "fucking dog cunt".
Said it was incorrect that by repeating what had been said by others at the earlier meeting, he was endorsing the expression.
Was pressed as to why he used, on a number of occasions, the expression "fucking dog cunts", and said he was "just reporting back".
Denied that he was referring to non-union workers as "fucking dog cunts" more than once. He said he only used the expression "fucking dog cunts" a "couple of times". When taken to his defence in the proceeding that had been filed the day before his testimony, he considered the pleading that admitted he used the expression "a number of times" was the same as "a couple of times".
Denied that during the meeting he used the expression "standover tactics" and said that it came from the floor. He said it was incorrect that this was another example of him trying to distance himself from what he actually said by attributing it to somebody else.
As to the use of the expression "standover tactics", said: "It was for feedback to say that that's what the companies were doing and that we would end up in court if we ever said the words 'standover tactics'"; said he used the expression in that context only and denied the question of standover tactics was discussed at the earlier 7am meeting; said it only came up from the floor at the 10am meeting; and denied that the question of standover tactics was never raised from the floor of the 10am meeting.
Agreed that the expression "standover tactics" involved talking about threats of violence.
Was taken to [39] of his affidavit and the reference to "this had also come up at the nightshift meeting", being a reference to the mention of standover tactics.
When asked whether this actually came up - the question of standover tactics, at the 7am meeting, answered "yes"; but denied that he made it part of his report back. He agreed that he could have forgotten to do that.
When challenged that he had made the whole thing up, that someone had raised the question of standover tactics from the floor, said that it was incorrect and denied that he was completely guessing now.
Following the canvassing of propositions previously put, denied that he did not have to raise his voice at the meeting to be heard and insisted that there were people yelling out while he was speaking, and said it was incorrect that only one question was asked from the floor.
72 Senior counsel for the Commissioner finally suggested to Mr Upton that he had made up the story that after 3 December he checked whether people had resigned. Mr Upton said that was incorrect. He also said it was incorrect to assert that his purpose in holding the meeting was not only as he suggested in [42] of his affidavit - to promote the enterprise bargaining agreement that had been achieved, and to communicate to workers what a great deal it was - but also (by inference in context of the questions asked) to intimidate non-union members or other union members who had resigned from the union following the making of the agreement to remain in or return to the union.
73 In re-examination:
Mr Upton explained why it would be significant if he learnt that 90 people had resigned following the signing of the agreement.
Said he had heard the expression "fucking dog cunts" used in relation to non-union people in other non-union contexts as well.
Explained why Tempo and RCR employees would be the first to go.
As to where right of entry meetings were usually held, said they were held in different locations because it was such a big area, but were commonly held in crib rooms.
As to why he was unable to produce notices for the right of entry meeting on 3 December, explained that he had looked on his computer for such notices but explained that they were produced by delegates on site and not him.
As to the rumour that was brought up at the nightshift meeting, he said it was about the protected action not going ahead. He was reminded (in what was in truth a leading moment by his senior counsel) that it was a rumour about people resigning from the union. He said that people were not happy that the union did not take the protected action threatened at earlier times. He said that these were the more militant members.