"What I'm suggesting, I think, in broad summary, is at this point in time what Dallas was seeking was two lots of funding from different people, Challenge Bank and Perpetual Finance, one to settle on St Andrews and the other to settle on the acquisition of level 3, Irwin Chambers?---I wouldn't say necessarily seeking. I would be wary to say that. This was company policy for us, to obtain different loans - interest rates so that we could always choose the best one at the end of the day.
What I'm suggesting to you is that at this point in time, at the times the letters are written in early July 1989, you as a director of Dallas had no assurance to that point from Custom Credit that they were going to lend any money at all in regards to either St Andrews or level 3, Irwin Chambers?---I believe that Custom Credit was going to lend us the money. Whether we chose at the end of the day to put that through I guess was up to us, but, yes, that's right.
The real nub of what I'm putting to you is that Dallas entered the swap transaction without reference to Custom Credit and then afterwards, after 19 June, it fished around town for money to settle on that transaction. That's what happened really, isn't it?---I'm not quite sure what you're getting at.
What I'm suggesting is that the swap was worked out around 19 June with somebody on behalf of Westminster?---Yes.
That was committed to by the contracts that you've seen, and then afterwards Dallas started to think about getting money from places around town, approached a number of places that we've seen, and then finally ended up with Custom Credit?---We were always with Custom Credit. Whether we were just keeping everyone honest on interest rates, I'm not quite sure what the motivation was, but it was normal policy for us to know what interest rates were going around town and to be able to put these sort of feasibilities you could get a good answer on that."