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[1982] FCA 58
Federal Court of Australia
1982-04-28
Morling JJ, Morling J, Lockhart J
Original judgment source is linked above.
Administrative Law - Broadcasting and Television Act 1942 -
ownership and control of television and broadcasting stations and licences - applicants acquire shareholdings requiring Broadcasting Tribunal's approval pursuant to ss. 903, 92F of the Act - consideration of meaning of "control" in the context of "prescribed interests" under the Act - whether applicants bear any onus of proof - whether acquisition of "prescribed interest" prima facie contrary to public interest - whether - possibility of control of a company holding a licence a relevant field of inquiry - whether Administrative Appeals Tribunal'ts judgment included findings on material questions of fact or references to the evidence on which those findings were based - whether relevant to have regard to contraventions of
Broadcasting and Television Act 1942 (Cth.) ss. 90 - 92KA.
Administrative Appeals Tribunal Act 1974 (Cth.) s. 43 (2) .
BISLEY INVESTMENT CORPORATION LIMITED & ANOR. v. THE AUSTRALIAN
} NEW SOUTH WALES DISTRICT REGISTRY )NO. G 139 OF 1981
ON APPEAL FROM ADMINISTRATIVE APPEALS TRIBUNAL GENERAL ADMINISTRATIVE DIVISION BETWEEN : BISLEY INVESTMENT CORPORATION LIMITED First Applicant and LYTONA PTY. LIMITED Second Applicant
First Respondent and COUNTRY TELEVISION SERVICES LIMITED
ORDERS JUDGES MAKING ORDERS: LOCKHART, SHEPPARD & MORLING J. WHERE MADE: AT SYDNEY DATE OF ORDERS: 28 APRIL 1982
The matter be remitted to the Administrative Appeals Tribunal for rehearing.
The second respondent, Country Television Services Limited pay the appellants' costs of the appeal.
NEW SOUTIT WALES DISTRICT REGISTRY )NO. G 139 OF 1981
ON APPEAL FROM ADMINISTRATIVE APPEALS TRIBUNAL GENERAL ADMINISTRATIVE DIVISION
Second Applicant THE AUSTRALIAN BROADCASTING TRIBUNAL
LOCKHART J.: This appeal involves consideration of the
labyrinthine and somewhat tortuous provisions of ss. 90-92KA
of the Broadcasting and Television Act 1942 ("the Act") which
relate to the ownership and control of broadcasting and
television stations and of commercial broadcasting and
A brief reference at this stage to some sections of the Act
Sections 90-92KA define the meaning of "control" of broadcasting and television stations and of licences. The sections
also attempt, by tracing controlling interests through chains of
shareholdings and series of companies, to defeat various schemes
devised and employed by people desirous of acquiring interests in a plurality of stations and anxious to avoid the provisions of the Act which limit the number of broadcasting and television stations that may
be controlled by any one person or persons in the one interest.
The particular sections of the Act most directly involved in this appeal are ss. 900 and 92F relating respectively to broadcasting and television licences. There are few differences between sections 30 to 90R dealing with broadcasting stations and sections 91 to 92KA relating to television stations; but those few differences are important and I shall refer later to one of them which is material to
Section 92F (s. 903 broadcasting licences ) deals with changes aun the ownership of shares in a company holding a licence and in a company holding a shareholding interest in such a company, as a result of which a person acquires a "prescribed interest" in a commercial
television licence or an interest in excess of a "prescribed interest".
Where a transaction takes place whereby a person becomes the
holder of a "prescribed interest" in a licence, he may apply to the Broadcasting Tribunal for approval of the transaction and it may grant
or refuse approval: s. 92F (1) and (2); s. 903 (1) and (2) in the
The expression "prescribed interest" is central to the
operation of ss. 90-92KA. A shareholding interest constituting more --- than 5% of the total paid-up share capital in a company holding a television licence is a "prescribed interest" (s. 91 (2) (e) ). 'The
percentage is 15% in the case of broadcasting licences (s. 90 (2) (c)).
The Australian Broadcasting Tribunal ("the Broadcasting
Tribunal") shall not refuse to grant approval of such a transaction
(a) it is of opinion that a contravention of s. 92 (s. 90 in the case of broadcasting licences), which in effect prohibits the holding of "prescribed
(b) ut considers it necessary to do so in order to maintain such ownership and control of the company holding the licence as in the opinion of the Broadcasting Tribunal "best accord with the public
The appeal is brought pursuant to s. 44 of the Administrative
Appeals Tribunal Act 1975 from a decision of the Administrative Appeals
Tribunal ("the Tribunal") which affirmed a decision of the Broadcasting
refusing approval of the acquisition by Bisley Investment Corporation Limited, the first applicant ("Bisley") of 20.37% of the issued capital of Country Television Services Limited, the second respondent ("Country Television") and of the proposed acquisition by Busley of a further 2.69%
approving the acquisition by Bisley of up to 15% of
With this background I turn now to the facts and the
Country Television is the licensee of commercial television
stations CBN-8 Central Tablelands area (Orange) and CWN-6 Central
Western Slopes (Dubbo) and the owner of all the issued share capital of
the license of commercial broadcasting station 2GZ Orange which in
turn holds all the issued share capital in the licensee of commercial
In or about 1935 a company called Country Broadcasting Services Limited obtained the licence to conduct radio station 2GZ at Orange. The shareholders were the Graziers' Association of New South Wales and other representatives of rural interests, especially those
associated with the areas served by the radio station.
When it was announced that television would be introduced _ into Australia, Country Broadcasting Services Limited caused Country Television to be incorporated for the purpose of applying for and holding, if successful, the licence for the commercial television
station proposed to be established in the Orange area. In due course
the licence was granted to Country Television to operate the station.
Associated with Country Broadcasting Services Limited in the application for that licence were various companies, all having close links with the areas to be served by the licence, including Email Limited which is the largest employer in Orange.
Upon the licence being granted, 1,695,196 shares of five shillings each were alloted ,of which 1,140,000 were held by Country Broadcasting Services Limited and the companies associated with it in the application for the licence; the remainder being alloted to the public, preference being given to residents of the area to be served by
All shares in the capital of Country Television have equal
With few exceptions, the directors of Country Television have always been associated with rural interests and, 1n many cases, with the particular areas served by Country Television's radio and television stations. There are at present seven directors, of whom
Although 50% of the shares in Country Television were initially held by persons residing in or otherwise associated with the area served by Country Television's radio and television stations, that percentage has now been reduced to 24%; although 1,064 persons residing in those areas are still shareholders and they represent 47.7%
Prior to the acquisition by Bisley of shares in Country Television, the issued share capital of Country Television comprised 2,787,664 ordinary stock units of 50 cents each full paid. No individual shareholder held shares in Country Television which constituted control of the company under s. 92B of the Act. There ware nine major shareholders, Email being the largest shareholder with 373,560 stock units or 13.4% of the issued capital. None of the other shareholders sought representation on the Board of Country Television or participated in its operations or affairs; so that the board of directors, having predominately rural and local interests, was able to give effect to policies which enabled Country Television to identify
itself with the relevant areas and to cater for the interests of the
Country Television has liquid assets in excess of $4,060,000 comprising;shares in listed public companies - $1.7 million, moneys on deposit - $1.5 million and industrial real estate - $750,000.00. These assets have been earmarked by the board for possible future expansion
Rene Rivkin, a graduate in law and a partner in the firm of stockbrokers, Rivkin & Co., together with other interests associated with that firm, control a company - Lytona Pty. Limited, the second applicant ("Lytona"). Their interests in Lytona were acquired for the purpose of enabling Lytona itself to acquire an interest in Bisley. About April 1979 Lytona acquired 45% of the issued share capital in Bisley, then known as Bisley Clothing Limited, a well established company manufacturing menswear. Following the acquisition of this 453 of Bisley's share capital, three representatives of Lytona, including Mr. Rivkin, were appointed to Bisley's Board of Directors.
As at 20 August 1°80 (the date on which Mr. Rivkin's statement was tendered to the Broadcasting Tribunal during a public inquiry to which I shall refer later) Lytona owned 37.5% of the issued share capital in Bisley. Lytona's only activity is its investment in
Since Lytona's unvolvement in Bisley, the latter's business
has diversified. It is not only a manufacturer of menswear but carries
on the business of "commodities, futures and moneymarket broking and
Mr. Rivkin said in his statement to the Broadcasting Tribunal that Bisley was interested in the "electronic media" because it believed that it would be a very strong growth area during the "80's
In January 1980 Mr. Rivkin became aware that a parcel of shares in Country Television was available for sale. On 4 January 1980 Bisley purchased 113,500 shares (pre-bonus) in Country Television. Thereafter Bisley continued to purchase shares in Country Television, so that as at 20 August 1980 it owned 757,144 shares, 20.3% of the ussued share capital in Country Television, of which 10,166 shares (.27%) were acquired after 20 May 1980. 470,983 of the 757,144 shares
were purchased from three major shareholders in Bisley.
By letter dated 28 May 1980, Bisley sought approval from the
Broadcasting Tribunal for the following transactions involving the
(a) the acquisition of 446,783 (16.03%) (pre~bonus)
(b) the transfer of 114,050 (4.09%) (pre-bonus) shares
Under the proposed arrangement, Bisley would hold 640,883 (22.99%) (pre-bonus) shares in the capital of Country Television and therefore would have a prescribed interest in the licences of stations oe
An undated application of Bisley and Lytona received by the
Broadcasting Tribunal on 13 August 1980 and subsequently amended by
telephone sought approval of the Broadcasting Tribunal for the
(a) the purchase by Bisley of 20.37% of the capital of
(b) the purchase by Bisley of a further 2.62% of the
At an extraordinary general meeting of stockholders of Country Television held on 21 July 1980 a recommendation to make a bonus issue of shares on the basis of 1 bonus share for each three stock units held on 1 August 1980 was approved. The new shares were
alloted on 15 August 1980 and converted to stock units.
Following that allotment, the issued capital of Country
Television became $1,858,443 comprising 3,716,886 fully paid ordinary
On the day of the extraordinary general meeting Mr. Rivkin met Sir Alvin Burton-Taylor, the chairman of directors of Country
Television, and other directors of that company. They discussed
Bisley's purchase of shares in Country Television. Mr. Rivkin said
that, in addition to the shares already acquired, it was not aunconceivable that "we" (Bisley) "would like to go to 30%". He told Sir Alvin that it would be "nice" if Bisley could have two directors on the board of Country Television. Sir Alvin replied that it was a matter for the Board and that he could not himself conceive of two directors, but "one maybe". In a later conversation that same day, Mr. Rivkin was informed that the Board of Country Television had met and was happy for "one of us" to join the Board at an appropriate time, and that at the Annual General Meeting the shareholders would be asked to increase the number of directors to eight, thus allowing Bisley to
The acquisition by Bisley of its shareholding in Country Television required the approval of the Broadcasting Tribunal pursuant to s. 903 of the Act as it constituted a "transaction" as a result of which Bisley became "the holder of shareholding interests" in Country Television "amounting to a prescribed interest in the licence" for
Both Bisley and Lytona required the approval of the
Broadcasting Tribunal pursuant to s. 92F of the Act in respect of their respective "prescribed interests" in the television licences of CBN
By press announcements published on 24 June 1980 the Broadcasting Tribunal invited comments from members of the public on
Bisley's applications for approval. The Broadcasting Tribunal received _-
eight submissions which in essence objected to a non-local shareholder gaining control of the television and broadcasting stations and expressed fears that the services provided by them to the local rural community
By notice dated 24 July 1980 the Broadcasting Tribunal gave notice that it intended to hold an Inquiry pursuant to ss. 90J and 92F
of the Act into the applications of Bisley with respect to the following
"(i) whether, as a result of the transactions, the applicant, or any other person, has or will have a prescribed interest in - _ (a) more than four commercial broadcasting stations in any one State or
(b) more than eight commercial broadcasting stations in Australia;
(ii) whether, as a result of the trans@ctions,the applicant, or any other person, has or will have a prescribed interest in each of three
changes in the ownership and control of the licensee (whether direct or indirect) that have occurred, or will occur, as a result of the transactions accord, or will accord,with the public interest;
(iv) the effect of the transactions on the commercial broadcasting services provided by commercial broadcasting stations 2GZ Orange and 2NZ Inverell, and
(v) the effect of the transactions on the - -- commercial television services provided - - - by CBN-8 Orange and CWN-6 Dubbo".
On 20 August 1980, the Vice-Chairman of the Broadcasting Tribunal, Mr. James Oswin, sitting as a Division of that Tribunal pursuant to s. 15¢ (1) of the Act, conducted 4n Inquiry at Orange into the applications. After the conclusion of the Inquiry the Broadcasting Tribunal (3 members including Mr. Oswin) considered the applications further and on 24 December 1980 delivered its decision and, by majority (Mr. Oswin and Mr. Moremon, Mr. Jones, the Chairman, dissenting) decided -
"1, To refuse to approve pursuant to s. 92F of the Act in so far as it affects Bisley Investment Corporation Limited and Lytona Pty. Limited and pursuant to s. 900 of the Act in so far as it affects Bisley Investment Corporation Limited the -- acquisition by Bisley Investment Corporation Limited of 20.37% and the proposed acquisition by that company of a further 2.62% of the issued ordinary capital in Country Television Services Limited.
Bisley and Lytona then appealed to the Tribunal which decided
on 15 September 1980 to affirm the decision of the Broadcasting"
At the hearing before the Tribunal the material before the Broadcasting Tribunal when reaching its decision was tendered, apparently without objection. That material included submissions from various local people and viva voce evidence of Mr. Rivkin, Sir Alvin Burton-Taylor and Archdeacon Kempson ~ Anglican Rector of the Parish of
Other evidence before the Tribunal included the affidavits of Sir Alvin Burton-Taylor, Archdeacon Kempson and Mr. West - Member of the Legislative Assembly of New South Wales for the Electoral District of Orange; further viva voce evidence of Sir Alvin Burton-Taylor and
The primary submission of the appellants was that the Tribunal erred in regarding as relevant for the purposes of s. 92F (4A)
(s. 903 (4A) as to broadcasting stations) provisions of the Act relating to statutory or deemed control. It was submitted that
statutory control is relevant solely to determine whether a person has
a "prescribed interest" in a licence and that the whole machinery of
the Act relating to "prescribed interests" exists readily to
ascertain if a person has contravened s. 92 (s.90C in the case of broadcasting stations) which limits the number of licences in which that person may have a "prescribed interest". The Act fastens on the acquisition of a "prescribed interest" as activating the provisions of
the Act (s.92F for television stations and s. 9303 for broadcasting ~~ stations) which require the approval of the Broadcasting Tribunal of transactions involving the transfer of shares; but it serves no other
purpose under s. 92F (or s. 907). The control referred to in s. 92F
(4A) (b) is said to be commercial control, not statutory or deemed
The appellants submitted that the Tribunal not only regarded statutory control as a relevant consideration under s. 92F GA)(s. 907 4A)); but assumed that the holding of a "prescribed interest" was prima facie contrary to the public interest; and that an onus lay upon the appellants to prove that it would best accord with the public interest that they acquire a"prescribed interest" in a commercial television licence. It was submitted by the appellants that the Tribunal fell anto further error by wrongly thinking that the "prescribed interest",
as to television licences, was the holding of a shareholding interest
exceeding 15% of the paid up share capital, not 5% as it is in fact.
It is necessary to examine the provisions of the Act dealing with ownership and control of television and broadcasting stations and
For almost 50 years Commonwealth law has limited the number of broadcasting stations which may be controlled by any one person or persons in the one interest. As long ago as 1935 the number of broadcasting licences which could be controlled by the one interest was
lamited by Commonwealth Regulation to eight (Statutory Rule No 120 of 1935
made under the Wireless Telegraph Act 1905). Since 1935 Commonweaith ---
legislation relating to this question has increased considerably. The
Act now contains elaborate and detailed provisions defining what is
meant by control: ss. 90-92KA (divisions 2 and 3 of Part IV).
The Act limits the total number of broadcasting and television licences which may be controlled by the one interest: 8 broadcasting and 2 television licences. The Act does not stop there. For example, it prohibits the holding of prescribed interests in more than four broadcasting licences in any one State, more than four metropolitan broadcasting licences in Australia and more than one
metropolitan broadcasting licence in any one State (s. 90C (1) ).
The Act forbids the holding of prescribed interests in two television licences in the same State capital and two television
The Act generally speaks of deemed control rather than actual control. The two concepts are different and it 1s important to keep this distinction in mind. The definition of "prescribed interest" is
common to many of the provisions relating to ownership and control and
links those provisions to s. 92 (broadcasting licences s. S90F) which prohibits the holding of "prescribed interests" in more than a
Section 91 (2) (broadcasting licences s. 90 (2) ) states five
tests for determining whether a person has a "prescribed interest".
Two of these tests depend upon control of the licence itself (being the holder of the licence or being in a position to exercise control, e1ther directly or indirectly, of the licence). Section 92A (broadcasting licences s. 90D) defines "control of a licence" in terms of being the licence holder; being in a position to exercise control
of the company that holds the licence; or being in a position to exercise control of the operations conducted under the licence or of the management of the station or of the selection or provision of
"Control of a company" is given an extended meaning by s. 92B
(broadcasting licences s. 90E). A person 1s deemed to be in a position
(a) control of a company, (b) of any votes, in respect of another company, of
if he is in a position to exercise control of more than 15% of the voting power in the company or has "shareholding interests" in a
company including shareholding interests exceeding in amount 15% of the
total of the amounts paid on all shares in the company.
A person has a "shareholding interest" in a company if he is beneficially entitled, to or to an interest in, shares in the company ---
provided the value of the shares is equal to the amount paid up on the
The three other tests for the existence of a "prescribed interest" in s. 91 (2) depend on the person being in a position to exercise control of more than 5% of the voting power of the company; or the person being the holder of interests in the company holding the licence exceeding in amount 5% of the total of the amounts of all the interests in that company that would exist if ss. 91A and 91B had not been enacted;or the person being the holder of shareholding interests in the company holding the licence exceeding in amount 5% of the total of
Section 91 (1) (s. 90 (1) as to broadcasting stations) defines "control" as including "control as a result of, or by means of, trusts, agreements, arrangements, understandings and practices, whether
or not having legal or equitable force and whether or not based on
Shareholding interests may be traced down the line through a
series of companies to a company which is the licensee. It is by means of these tracing provisions (ss. 91A television and 90B broadcasting) that a company which does not hold shares in a company holding a licence may nevertheless be deemed to have a shareholding interest in
Section 92C (broadcasting stations 90F) limits the number~ of a
directorships of "television" companies which a person may hold.
Section 92D (broadcasting stations 90G) limits non-resident ownership
The Act deems a person to be in a position to exercise control of a television licence or of the company holding the licence if, for example, he is beneficially entitled to more than 5% of the paid-up shares in the company holding the licence (control of the licence) or 1s in a position to exercise control of more than 15% of the voting power of a company or has shareholding interests in a
company exceeding 15% of the total of the paid-up share capital of the
company (control of the company and therefore the licence) - ss. 92B
and 92A. Similarly, in the case of broadcasting licences, except the
With a percentage as low in some cases as 5%, it is plain
that many people will be deemed to be in a position to exercise control
This suggests that the draftsman of the Act intended to
cast a very wide net and include all cases of actual control as well as the larger class of potential controllers. The following passage from
the judgment of Kitto J. in The Herald and Weekly Times Limited v. The
Commonwealth (1966) 115 C.L.R. 418 and p. 436-437 is in point:-
"...the offence provisions are setting up a barrier against, not indeed the probability, but the possibility that a person who may be able, by reason of any of a number of legal or business
relationships, to influence the exercise of the rights conferred by one television licence may be able, by reason of such a relationship, to influence the exercise of the rights conferred by another television licence".
His Honour said that each of these relationships gave rise to
"...a situation which according to ordinary experience
may, in some cases at least, support an endeavour to affect the control or management of a television station or its operation under its licence. And, as everyone knows, even the faintest of volces may sometimes carry the day."
The policy of the Act is to secure freedom of competition and diversity of control among the important national services of television and broadcasting. Hence, the prohibition on the control by
any one person or persons in the one interest of more than a specified
Human ingenuity being what it is, the Act contains complex provisions to defeat schemes designed to circumvent these prohibitions by interlocking companies and arrangements of various descriptions.
Once a person acquires a prescribed interest in a licence (even a
shareholder holding as little as 5% of the paid up capital in the
company holding the television licence) the Act treats him as being @
potential controller of the licence or of the company that holds it. It is not entirely clear why Parliament chose a shareholding of 15% in the case of broadcasting licences and 5% for television licences. Probably it was thought that radio stations are more often owned by local family interests and that their share capital generally is more closely held The Act selects the Broadcasting Tribunal as the appropriate body to determine whether a person should hold more than a prescribed interest: s. 92F (broadcasting stations s. 903).
Where a transaction takes place whereby a person becomes the holder of prescribed interest in the licence, he may apply to the Broadcasting Tribunal for approval of the transaction in so far as it affects him; and the Broadcasting Tribunal may grant or refuse approval (s. 92F (1} and (2) ) (broadcasting stations s. 90J (1) and (2) ).
Sub-sections (4) and (4A) of s. 92F (sub-ss. (4) and (4A) of s. 9003 in the case of broadcasting stations) provide:-
are determined by the Tribunal to be relevant to the application of this sub-section and sub-section (4A) in relation to the transaction.
(4A) The Tribunal shall not refuse to grant approval under this section, and shall not give a notice under sub-section (3), unless the Tribunal -
(a) is of the opinion that the transaction has resulted or would result ina contravention by the person concerned of section 92; or
(b) considers it necessary to do so in order to maintain such ownership and control, whether direct or indirect , of the company holding the licence as, in the opinion of the Tribunal, best accord with the public interest."
The definition of "control" in s. 91 (1) (broadcasting s. 90
(1) } applies not only to deemed or statutory control but also to
the control of which sub-s. (4A) speaks. The definition in s. 91
(1) (and s. 90 (1) ) is an inclusive definition. It is necessary to first inquire as to the ordinary meaning of the word and then apply the statutory extensions mentioned in this section. So understood, control in sub-s. (4A) means control in the sense of control according to its ordinary meaning whether it results from or by means of legally binding
agreements or informal arrangements or understandings or practices.
But this is not to say that deemed or statutory control is irrelevant for the purposes of sub-s. (4A). It is the acquisition of a "prescribed interest" that enlivens the Broadcasting Tribunal's jurisdiction to approve or refuse to approve the transaction. The Broadcasting Tribunal must approach its task on the footing that Parliament regards the acquisition of a "prescribed interest" (as low as 5% in the case of the television station) as conferring a potentiality for subsequent control. But the Broadcasting Tribunal should not approach its task on an assumption that a "prescribed interest" 1s inimical to the public interest. To do so would be a
misconception of the role played under the Act by the acquisition of a
"prescribed interest". Also it would be contrary to the requirements of sub-s. (4A). It is only if the Broadcasting Tribunal considers it necessary to refuse approval on the grounds specified in the sub-section that it may do so. If, for example, the Broadcasting Tribunal is left in doubt whether it is necessary to refuse approval, it must grant approval. This is inconsistent with any assumption that
a "prescribed interest" is against the public interest.
It is also erroneous to talk of the appellants as bearing any
onus of proof for the purposes of sub-s. (4A). The concept of onus of proof has its place primarily in civil and criminal proceedings before Courts. It may apply to proceedings before Administrative Tribunals in some cases, but not relevantly to sub-s. (4A). The Broadcasting Tribunal 1s required to hold an inquiry into such matters as are determined by it to be relevant to the application of sub-ss. (4) and (4A) in relation to the transaction; and it shall not refuse to grant approval unless it considers it necessary to do so in order to maintain the ownership and control mentioned in sub~s. (4A) (b). Doubtless the person seeking approval for the transaction will produce material before the Broadcasting Tribunal so that a decision can be made by it; but it does not follow that any onus of proof lies upon him in the sense of either an ultimate onus or an evidentiary onus.
I agree with the following passage from the decision of
the Tribunal (Morling J.) in Control Investments Pty. Limited v. The
Australian Labor Party, decision given 17 December 1981 at p. 215-6:-
"An inquiry held in pursuance of that duty is different in character from a case where one party seeks to prove a case against another. In such a case oneor other of the parties usually bears an onus of proof, depending upon the particular issues in the case.
the argument, pressed by the applicants, that the effect of s. 92F (4A) is to require the Tribunal to approve an application unless it is satisfied of one or other of the matters referred to in s. 92F
(4A) (a) or (b). If, having made inquiry, the Tribunal is left in doubt whether it should come to the opinion referred to in s. 92 (4A) (a), or whether it is necessary to refuse the application in order
to maintain the ownership and control referred to in s. 92F (4A) (b), then it 1s under an obligation not to refuse approval."
As I understand the Tribunal's reasons for its decision, it did not regard the appellants as bearing any evidentiary onus of proof during the conduct of the Inquiry before the Broadcasting Tribunal; indeed, the Tribunal expressly disclaimed any notion that an onus of proof lay upon the appellants. I have not found it easy to decide whether the Tribunal regarded the appellants as bearing any ultimate onus of proof; but I. have come to the conclusion that this was not the Tribunal's view.
I turn to the submission of the appellants that the Tribunal ---
embarked upon its task on the assumption that it was prima facie contrary
to the public interest that Bisley and Lytona acquired a "prescribed interest" and, that this assumption coloured the whole approach of the Tribunal to the Matter before it. This submission is essentially different from the
submissions in relation to onus of proof. The Tribunal said in its reasons:~-
"My view is that on a consideration of the whole section and the interests to be protected, a pre- condition of refusal to approve a transaction is that there is held the ss. (4) inquiry. That inquiry is concerned with the public interest.
is the person seeking approval. There is no prima facie notion, I suggest, that a shareholding acquisition of or beyond the prescribed interest is to be assumed in accord with public interest; se but rather the reverse.
Then it is to be investigated whether the applicant is to have the approval he seeks; i.e. if to refuse is necessary to maintain the relevant ownership and control; or whether there should be an approval granted to the applicant in aid of its maintenance."
In my view the Tribunal did conduct the appeal before it on the assumption that prima facie the holding by the appellants of
shares, at least sufficient to constitute "prescribed interests", was
making its ultimate findings, the Tribunal did not say that any such
prima facie assumption had not been rebutted. Also, I do not think
that it 1s a correct apprOach for a court, hearing an 'appeal on a
guestion of law from the Tribunal, to expect every process of reasoning, no matter how minute, to be expressed in the reasons for
decision. But the passage just cited from the Tribunal's reasons seems
to me to be a plain assertion of the assumption in question. I see
nothing else in the reasons pointing clearly to the contrary. Indeed,
I have the impression from a reading of the Tribunal''s reasons as a
With respect to the Tribunal, in my opinion, that assumption is erroneous. I said earlier that there is no onus of proof in the strict sense cast upon the person seeking approval. Nor is there room for any prima facie assumption that the acquisiton of a "prescribed interest" is not in accord with the public interest. The acquisition of a "prescribed interest" 1s the incident fastened on by the Act to
indicate a potentiality for future control of the company holding the
Such acquisition gives rise to the necessity to seek the approval of the Broadcasting Tribunal for the acquisition. The Broadcasting Tribunal is then charged with the duty of granting or refusing approval. It shall not refuse to grant approval unless it is of the opinion that the transaction has resulted or would result in
the contravention by the person concerned of s. 90 (2) or 90C; orit
maintain such ownership and control, whether direct or indirect, of the company holding the licence as, in the opinion of the Tribunal, best accord with the public interest."
The structure and language of sub-s. (4A) are inconsistent
I am satisfied that the Tribunal erred in law and that -it-.
cannot be said with confidence that the Tribunal would have come to the same conclusion if it had not made that assumption. That being so the appellants are entitled to have their application for review
redetermined: Collins v. Minister for Immigration and Ethnic Affairs
I turn to the criticism of the Tribunal's reasons that it regarded a "prescribed interest" in the television licence as being the
holding of 15% of the paid-up capital of the company holding the
Whether through oversight, or a slip of the pen, I am
satisfied that the Tribunal did fall into error in this respect.
Earlier I thought that a combination of ss. 92B (1), 92A (1)
(b) and 91 (2) (b) might suggest that the Tribunal's reference to a "prescribed interest" in a company holding a television licence being 15% of the total of the amounts paid on all shares in the company was accurate. However, a fair reading of the relevant parts of the
Tribunal's reasons leaves me with the impression that the Tribunal
momentarily overlooked the fact that a 5% shareholding is sufficient for a "prescribed interest" in a licence for a television station. This is an error of law; but it does not necessarily follow
that the matter must be sent back to the Tribunal for re-consideration on this ground. In my opinion the Tribunal would have come to the same conclusion as it did if it had not placed any weight at all upon its view that a 15% shareholding was necessary for a "prescribed interest" in a television licence. Indeed, if the error played any part at all in the Tribunal's decision, it would have operated in favour of the appellants. This error affords no basis for sending the matter back to
the Tribunal for reconsideration: Collins v. Minister for Immigration
It was next submitted by the appellants that the Tribunal
"I consider that it is not possible exactly to anticipate what might be the result in the future of permitting Bisley to hold more than 15% of Country Television shares. With a holding of shares beyond that percentage there is a real possibility in the future there could well be exerted control or a degree of control by Bisley inhibiting the discharge by Country Television of its responsibility according to its present high or appropriate standards to the people of the area reached by its signalS- The possibility of control would increase if Bisley in any effort itmight make towards greater influence were to be assisted by a 'friendly' shareholder or group."
The appellants submitted that it was irrelevant for the
Tribunal to consider the future possibility of control of Country
Television; that only present control was relevant, and that even if
such possibility was relevant, there was no evidence to support those findings of the Tribunal.
I reject the argument that the possibility of control of a company holding a television (or broadcasting) licence is an irrelevant field of inquiry for the Broadcasting Tribunal under s. 92F (4A) and s. 903 (4A).
The overriding concern of the Act is to ensure the preservation of freedom of competition and diversity of control. ™ The Act selects criteria including a shareholding interest of 5% in the case of television licences and 15% in the case of broadcasting licences as indicative of a potentiality for possible future control. This points strongly to the conclusion that it is within the scope of the Broadcasting Tribunal's inquiry under sub-s. (4A) to examine
matters touching the possibility of future control of the company
Contrary to the argument advanced by the appellants, the existence in the Broadcasting Tribunal of powers to vary or revoke conditions of licences or to impose further conditions (s. 85) or ao to suspend or revoke licences (s. 88) does not support a conclusion that the possibility of future control 1s an impermissible field
In R. v. Australian Broadcasting Tribunal; ex parte 2HD Pty. Limited (1979) 144 C.L.R. 45 the High Court considered s. 89 (1) of the
Act which provided, inter alia, that the licensee of a commercial broadcasting station might transfer the licence with the consent in writing of the Broadcasting Tribunal; but without that consent it
should not do so. The High Court held that the subject matter, scope
and purpose of the Act suggested that the Broadcasting Tribunal's discretion to refuse consent to a transfer of a licence extended to matters of public interest and was not confined to cases where the transfer would bring about a contravention of the Act; and that the- Sse concentration of ownership below the limit fixed by s. 90C might give rise to a possibility of influence and control prejudicial to the
public interest and that the Broadcasting Tribunal might take that possibility into account when deciding whether to consent to the transfer
It would be anomalous if the possibility of control prejudicial to the public interest is a permissible ground for refusing consent to a transfer of the licence itself (s. 89A); but is not a permissible ground for refusing consent to a transfer of shares in the company holding
The wide discretion conferred upon the Broadcasting Tribunal by s. 92F together with s. 17 (1) which provides that, for the purpose of exercising its powers and functions under the Act, the Broadcasting Tribunal should have power to do all things as it thinks fit confirms my view that the Broadcasting Tribunal's discretion cannot be fettered in the way sought by the appellants.
I turn to the submission that there is no evidence to support the
-29- Tribunal's findings relating to the possibility of future control. The evidence shows that Bisley was a manufacturer of menswear until Mr. Rivkin and his associates assumed control of it. Thereafter it became, in addition, a financial entrepreneur. Mr. Rivkin told Sir Alvin Burton-Taylor that "it was not inconceivable that we " (Bisley) "would like to go to 30%". Bisley wished to have two of its representatives on the Board of Country Television. Bisley continued to acquire shares in Country Television after it acquired a prescribed interest thus acting contrary to law (s. 92F (5) and s. 907 (5) ). Country Television has Liquid assets upwards of four million dollars. Bisley has no rural interests whether in the Orange/Dubbo district or otherwise. It has nothing to contribute to Country Television except perhaps financial and accounting advice - advice which Sir Alvin Burton- faylor, the Chairman of Directors of Country Television, said could be readily purchased elsewhere if Country Television's existing sources of advice and expertise needed supplementing. Sir Alvin Burton-Taylor gave evidence which was accepted by the Tribunal that a holding by Bisley of 203 of the capital of Country Television with the support of Bisley's- friends holding less than a "prescribed interest" (say 4.9%) could ensure control of Country Television. Bisley sought not merely a holding of 30%; it wanted also some measure of control of Country Television's affairs.
This is not the only evidence touching the question of the possibility of future control of Country Television by Bisley; but I have referred to sufficient of the evidence to demonstrate that there was evidence on which the Tribunal could make the finding it did relating to this question. The submission fails.
Pinally as to this aspect of the matter, it was submitted by the appellants that the Tribunal failed to give any, or any real, weight to the "undertaking" of Mr. Rivkin given by counsel for Bisley to the
Tribunal during the course of the hearing before it.
"That in the event of any offer being received in Bisley's shareholding in Country Television at some future time should it, contrary to present intentions, be disposed to sell the shares, they would first be offered to residents of the viewing area or areas of the licencee company at the price offered to Bisley; further, that in the event of
would attempt to have the value of Bisley's shareholding in Country Television independently
assessed and offered separately to the residents of - the viewlng area or areas to which I have referred. 7" I would merely point out, your Honour, that the undertaking in relation to any takeover offer for
minority shareholders would have to be considered."
The Tribunal set out the terms of the "undertaking" in its reasons for decision; but did not refer to it otherwise. This does not avail the appellants. It is an "undertaking" as to Bisley's intentions 1f it wishes to sell its shares in Country Television in the future. It says nothing as to the circumstances in which Bisléy may acquire further shares in Country Television. Indeed, it is difficult to see what status this "undertaking" has at all. It is called an "undertaking"; but in so far as it referred to any takeover offer for shares in Bisley itself 1t could not be given as a "firm undertaking" as Bisley is a public company and the views of minority shareholders
would have to be considered. It has not been shown that the
The appellants referred to the following passage in the
opportunities. These circumstances were relied upon by Country Television and other interested parties as demonstrating that approval of the applications would not lead to such ownership and control of the company holding the television and broadcasting licenses, i.e. Country Television, as would best accord with the public interest (see s.92F(4A)(b)} of the Act. They therefore submitted that the Tribunal was entitled to, and should, refuse the applications. ~ The Broadcasting Tribunal was constituted by a quorum consisting of Mr David Jones, Chairman, Mr James Oswin, Vice- President, and Mr Keith Moremon, Member. The Tribunal, by majority (Messrs Oswin and Moremon, Mr Jones dissenting) refused to grant approval pursuant to s.92F of the Act of the share transactions in so far as they involved the acquisition or the proposed acquisition by Bisley of shares representing approx- imately 23% of Country Television's capital. However, it granted its approval pursuant to s.92F and 90J to the acquisition by
Bisley of up to 15% of Country Television's capital. Mr Jones
would have approved all the applications in their entirety.
Bisley and Lytona applied to the Administrative Appeals Tribunal for a review of the Broadcasting Tribunal's decision. In accordance with the provisions of s.119A(3) of the Broad-
casting and Television Act the applications for review were heard
by a Deputy President of the Tribunal who affirmed the decision under review. From this latter decision the applicants appealed to this court. The appeal is confined to questions of law - see
s.44(1) of the Administrative Appeals Tribunal Act 1973.
Before considering the merits of the appeal, it is convenient to refer to some of the more relevant provisions of the Broadcasting and Television Act. It is unnecessary, for present purposes, to refer in detail to all of the complex provisions in Part IV of the Act dealing with the limitation of ownership or control of commercial broadcasting and television stations. A brief outline of these will suffice. Division 2. of Part IV places restrictions upon the ownership and control of broadcasting stations. Section 90(2) provides that a person has a prescribed interest in a licence for a commercial broadcasting station if he holds shares exceeding 15% of the capital of the company holding the licence. Provision is made for the tracing of shareholding interests through a series of companies (s.90B). Section 90C restricts the number of prescribed interests in licences which may be held by one person. By the combined effect of ss. 90D and 90E a person who is in a position to exercise control of more than 15% of the votes at a general meeting of the company is deemed to be in a position to exercise control of a licence held by that company. Section 90J provides that where a transaction in relation to which the section applies to a person is proposed or has taken place, that person may apply to the Broadcasting Tribunal for approval of the transaction in so far as it affects him. The section is expressed, by s.907(1) to apply to a person in relation to a transaction where the transaction is in respect of shares in a company holding a
broadcasting licence and where, as a result of the transaction,
the person becomes the holder of shares amounting to a prescribed
interest in the licence. The provisions of s. 90J are broadly similar to the provisions of s.92F (dealing with television licences) to which I shall later refer in more detail.
Division 3 of Part IV contains provisions Limiting ownership or control of commercial television stations. &.$1(2) provides that a person has a prescribed interest in a television licence if, inter alia, he is in a position to exercise control of the licence or if he holds shares exceeding 5% of the capital of the company holding the licence. Section 91A (like s.90B) makes provision for the tracing of shareholding interests through a series of companies, and s.92 places restrictions on the number of prescribed interests which a person may have in television licences. By the combined effect of ss. 932A and 92B, a person is deemed to be in a position to exercise control of television licence if, inter alia, he holds 15% of the shares in the company holding the licence. Section 92F is central to the applications which are the subject of the present appeal. The section provides, in part, as follows:
section applies to a person in relation to a trans- - action (whether or not the person is a party to the
transaction) where - (a) the transaction is in respect of shares in a company holding a licence, or shares in a
company having a shareholding interest in such a company, and, as a result of the
transaction - (1) that person becomes the holder of shareholding interests in the company holding a licence
{including any interests previously held) amounting to a prescribed interest in the licence; or
(i1) that person, being already the holder of shareholding interests in the company holding a licence amounting to a prescribed interest in the licence, becomes the holder of a further shareholding interest, or an increase in the amount or proportion of his shareholding interests, in that company; or
or debentures of, a company holding a licence and, as a result of the trans- - action -
(i) that person becomes the holder of interests in the company holding a licence (including any interests previously held) amounting to a prescribed interest in the licence; or
(11) that person, being already the holder of interests in the company holding a licence amounting to a prescribed interest in the licence, becomes the holder of a further interest, or an increase in the amount or proportion of his interests, in that company.
(2) Where, on or after the date of commence- ment of the Broadcasting and Television Act 1965, a transaction in relation to which this section applies to a person is proposed or has taken place, that person may apply to the Tribunal for approval of the transaction in so far as it affects that person, and the Tribunal may, subject to this section, grant or refuse approval.
(4) The Tribumal shall not refuse to grant approval under this section unless it has held an inquiry into such matters as are determined by the Tribunal to be relevant to the application of this sub-section and sub-section (4A) in relation to the transaction.
(4A) The Trabunal shall not refuse to grant approval under this section, and shall not give a notice under sub-section (3), unless the Tribunal -
(a) is of the opinion that the transaction has resulted or would result in a contravention by the person concerned of section 92; or
{b) considers it necessary to do so in order to maintain such ownership and control, whether direct or indirect, of the company holding
(5) A person who becomes a party to, or accepts benefits under, a transaction, being a trans- - -
action in relation to which this section applies to ~+ him, without the approval of the Tribunal having been given to the transaction in so far as it affects that person is guilty of an offence against this section."
The arguments advanced by Mr Shand Q.C. on behalf of the applicants ranged over a wide field. The reasons of Lockhart J. (which I have had the benefit of reading in draft form and with which I generally agree) deal with all the substantial points raised. I cannot usefully add much to what his Honour has said about most of them. But I shall state my own reasons for rejecting some of Mr Shand's principal submissions, and for
accepting the submission that leads to the result that the appeal
It was submitted by Mr Shand that his Honour's reasons for judgment disclose a misunderstanding of what constitutes a prescribed interest in a broadcasting or television licence. He argued that it could be seen from his Honour's reasons that he was of the erroneous view that it was necessary for a share- holding in a company holding a licence to reach 15% before the shareholder became the holder of a prescribed interest. It was
said that this view appears from the following passage in the
"The attainment by a person without approval of a prescribed interest in a licensee company (share- holding exceeding the 15% figures of the total of the amounts paid on all shares in that company) can attract that the person is to cease to have shareholding interest in the licensee company amounting to a prescribed interest, e.g. s.90J, 92F."
It is true that the reference to a 15% shareholding_ is inapposite in that, in the case of a television licence, a person has a prescribed interest if he holds 5% of the shares in the company holding the lacence - see s.91(2). But I do not think it
is correct to treat this slip as manifesting a basic misunderstanding of the relevant provisions of the Act. I think that the absence of a reference to a 5% shareholding constituting a prescribed interest in the case of a company holding a television licence is explicable if one bears in mind that his Honour was not necessarily intending to refer exhaustively to prescribed interests in the opening words of the above quoted passage from his judgment. I do not think that a fair reading of the whole of the judgment discloses that his Honour was under any misapprehension as to the provisions of the Act dealing with shareholdings that give rise to prescribed interests.
In any event, in so far as any error was made by his Honour in this regard, it could only have operated in favour of the applicants. It can reasonably be assumed that his Honour would have concluded that the applicants had stronger cases for approval had he been of the view that it was necessary for a
shareholding in a company holding a television licence to exceed
15% before the shareholder obtained a prescribed interest. Put another way, 1t is clear that if there were error (which I do not accept) it played no part in his Honour's decision to refuse the applications. In these circumstances there is no basis for the making of an order that the applications should be re-determined. See Vocisano v Vocisano (1974) 130 C.L.R. 267 at 274-5 and Rose-Beresford v The Commonwealth (1971) 45 A.L.J.R. 178. - Mr Shand also submitted that, although his Honour dia not say so in so many words, his reasons disclose that he was of the view that the applicants carried the onus of establishing that their applications should be approved. He claimed this was an error of law which vitiated the decision. He fastened upon
the following passage in his Honour's judgment, in which he makes
"My view is that on a consideration of the whole section and the interests to be protected, a pre-condition or (sic) refusal to approve a transaction is that there is held the subsection IV enquiry. That enquiry is concerned with the
public interest. The moving party subject to what appears below, is the person seeking approval. There is no prima facie notion, I suggest, that a shareholding acquisition of or beyond the prescribed interest is to be assumed in accord with public interest; but rather the reverse."
Following this passage in his judgment, his Honour referred to the provisions of s.25(3) of the Broadcasting and Television Act which provides that the Broadcasting Tribunal "shall ensure that every person having an interest in the proceedings before the Tribunal at an enquiry is given a
reasonable opportunity to present his case ...". The judgment
"The use of the expression in s.25(3) 'to present his case' does support that the applicant bears
the duty of persuasion. However, having regard to the use of the term 'thorough investigation'
Broadcasting Tribunal & Ors; ex parte Hardiman & Ors (1979) 29 A.L.R. 289; it is open to
question finally whether there is really an onus of proof in the ordinary sense once the A.B.T. is required itself to make such an investigation.
"I consider there is no onus of proof in the sense in which that expression is ordinarily used on any party to the enquiry; though inferences may in appropriate circumstances be drawn against a party where, e.g. there is a failure to provide information which might be thought to have been peculiarly within the knowledge of that party."
Read in their entirety, his Honour's reasons do not convey that he was of the opinion that the applicants carried any onus of proof. Nor do they convey that he determined any issue in the case by reference to an onus of proof that he placed on the applicants. The factual matters that seem to have weighed most heavily with his Honour in reaching his decision were not really in dispute. Those matters were that the applicants had no connection with the country areas where Country Television's programmes were broadcast, that Country Television's attractiorm to Bisley was that it was a good investment in a growth industry, and that Bisley had no expertise in the electronic media industry. His Honour's views on those matters were quite unaffected by any opinion he held as to any evidentiary onus of proof. Thus, even if his Honour had an erroneous view as to where the onus of proof lay, it played no part in his ultimate decision. This submission therefore also fails.
Mr Shand argued that even if his Honour did not hold
that the applicants carried an onus of proof in the conventional
sense, he nevertheless was of the erroneous view that there was a statutory presumption arising from s.92F(4A)(b) that the acquisition of a prescribed interest in a company holding a television licence was against the public interest. This result was said to flow from his Honour's observation that:
"There is no prima facie notion, I suggest, that a shareholding acquisition of or beyond the -
prescribed interest is to be assumed in accord ~~ with the public interest, but rather the reverse."
The crucial question in the appeal is the meaning of, and importance to be attached to these words. They were the subject of much debate before us. Mr Handley Q.C., who appeared for Country Television, submitted that they were capable of more than one meaning, and perhaps that is so. But I do not think he seriously contended that they were not capable of meaning that the acquisition of 5% or more of the shares in the capital of a company holding a television licence is assumed to be against the public interest. In my opinion it 1s clear that there is nothing in s.92F or elsewhere in the Act giving rise to a presumption that the acquisition of a prescribed interest is to be deemed to be against the public interest. I did not understand Mr Handley to submit to the contrary. Certainly the words used by his Honour seem to indicate he believed such a presumption existed.
With respect, I adhere to the view I expressed in Control
Investments Pty. Ltd. ve. Australian Broadcasting Tribunal
(17.12.81 at p-.216) that if, having made inquiry, the Tribunal is
left in doubt whether it is necessary to refuse the application
in order to maintain the ownership and control referred to in s.92F(4A)(b), then it is under an obligation not to refuse approval. Such an obligation is inconsistent with the notion
that there is a presumption that the acquisition of a prescribed interest is deemed to be against the public interest. Mr Handley argued that his Honour did not necessarily intend to convey in the words that he used that there was such a presumption. This may be correct, but I do not think that it can be safely assumed | against the applicants that this was the case. Upon such a crucial matter, the applicants are entitled to rely upon the literal meaning of the words used.
The question therefore arises whether the erroneous statement that "there is no prima facie notion ... that a share- holding acquisition ... beyond the prescribed interest is to be assumed in accord with public interest; but rather the reverse" amounts to such an error of law as to warrant the setting aside of the decision. I confess that I have not found this question easy to decide. In Vocisano's Case (supra) Barwick C.J. said at
"In my opinion, before a new trial is ordered in a case where the verdict is in accordance with the evidence, it should be seen that the inadmissible Matter has been used by the judge in reaching his verdict."
slightly different emphasis, in Collins v. Minister for
Immigration and Ethnic Affairs (1981) 36 A.L.R. 598 at 603 where
it was said that an appellant who demonstrates that a matter has
wrongly been taken into account by the Administrative Appeals Tribunal is entitled to a redetermination of his application for review unless it can be said with confidence that the Tribunal would have come to the same conclusion in any event.
What has troubled me in reaching a decision on this matter is whether it can be said that the presumption which his Honour believed to exist took any part in his ultimate decision. I was initially of the view that it did not because there is no reference to the presumption at the conclusion of the judgment where his Honour's reasons for rejecting the applications most clearly appear. But upon reflection I do not think it is possible to say that his Honour's belief in the existence of the supposed presumption was not relied upon by him in reaching his decision. Indeed, I think it probable that it was. The critical matter for decision was whether his Honour considered it necessary to refuse to grant approval for the reason referred to in s.92P(4A)(b). The supposed statutory presumption that the transactions for which approval was sought were against the public interest would have been seen as a weighty circumstance to be taken into account in determining whether it was necessary to refuse the applications. It may well have been the determining factor in the ultimate decision. In these circumstances the applicants have established their right to have their applications for review redetermined.
As the matter must go back for redetermination I would
add a few additional observations upon two matters argued before
us which may well again arise for consideration. In his reasons
Lockhart J. rejects the submission that the possibility of control of a company holding a television or broadcasting licence is an irrelevant field of enquiry for the Broad- casting Tribunal under s.92F(4A) and s.907(4A). I agree
that this is so. I am of this opinion because the suit- ability and fitness of an applicant will always be relevant Matters for consideration in an inquiry held pursuant to s.92F(4). One matter which could properly be considered _™ in determining the suitability of an applicant company
would be whether it has a policy of seeking to obtain controlling interests in other companies in which 1t invests. Such company policy, if established, could properly be regarded as bearing upon its suitability as the owner of a substantial shareholding in a licensee company. It was
thus appropriate, in the present case, for the learned
Deputy President to take into account Bisley's expressed desire to acquire up to 30% of Country Television's capital. But that is not to say that the inquiry was an inquiry into
an application for approval of a 30% shareholding in Bisley. ~ It was not. If and when such an application is made, it
will have to be determined on its merits having regard to
the circumstances which then prevail. For example, it is possible that when such an application is heard and
determined relevant policy may have changed or changes may have occurred in the ownership of shares in Country Television. It would not be proper to prejudge such an application by reference to the evidence and submissions in the current
I also agree with Lockhart J. that no error of law was made by his Honour in failing to take into account established policy of the Australian Broadcasting Tribunal. In relation to the decisions of the Broadcasting Tribunal which were said to be supportive of the applicants' case, the learned Deputy President said that he had not found them of great assistance. Plainly, this finding cannot be said to be erroneous in law. But, tor myself, I would prefer not to express any opinion about the content of any such policy or the weight which should be attached to it. These matters were not fully developed in argument before us and I would not wish to say anything about them which may influence further consideration of the applications when they are