"Is it your evidence that that method of starting a fire is very difficult?---It is very difficult, yes.
But not impossible?---No, it's not impossible but in this circumstance it is highly unlikely.
So very difficult, highly unlikely in this circumstance?---That's correct.
And not impossible?---No, not impossible.
That, for a fire to start with a burning cigarette on a bed, depends upon a coming together of those three things: oxygen, heat and material, fuel, in an optimum way. Is that right?---That's correct. For a fire you need those three elements and as I said, we call it the fire triangle.
So before you did this test burn in February 04 in your experience as a fire investigator it always was highly unlikely, difficult but not impossible. Before you even did this test burn?---That's correct from my experience, yes.
And from all the available literature and that sort of thing?---That's correct, yes.
In order to have that test burn relate to this particular case one of the things you did was try to replicate the scene. Is that right?---To the best we could. We are not going to get it exact. To my understanding the material we got - the bed linen et cetera - was from the hotel but unfortunately we weren't - had at our disposal dongas et cetera to do that.
So might I put to you some of the things that might have been different. For example, you weren't able to replicate the amount of oxygen in the room, for example?---No, that's correct, because in the test burn the front wall was missing. So it is going to get a larger amount of oxygen.
What about the effect of wind? Does wind make it more likely that ignition can occur?---Yes, wind would help and that's just simply oxygen being blown across the fire. As you can probably see from fires and that the wind does have some effect and pushes it to the direction where the wind is blowing to.
In trying to relate it to what might come up in this case, wind blowing across a lighted cigarette butt increases likelihood?---It's a possibility again, yes.
Wind from an open door or a draft in an old room, for example. Would that be right?---That's correct, but in the test you saw the cigarettes on the bed there and the wall was completely missing so that had a large amount of wind blowing across it and we still couldn't get the cigarette to light, or to ignite.
Would a cigarette butt lying on a surface - one of the other more precise optimum factors would be the exact nature of the flammable material. I suppose I ought try and make that more clear. A frayed edge would be more likely to ignite than a flat surface. Would that be right?---It depends on your combustibles. If the item is smaller then it is probably easier to burn than a bigger piece of item. The simply [sic] scenario that I can give you, or the example, would be a small twig to a large piece of wood. A small twig will burn quicker, or ignite, than a large piece of jarrah wood or something like that. So, yes.
A frayed edge of bedding might be more likely to ignite than a flat surface. Would that be right?---A frayed yes, but it has got to sustain combustion.
In fact, an edge of an item itself might be more likely to hit ignition than a flat surface. In this case an edge of a sheet rather than a flat surface. Would that be right?---That's correct. It would be easier to ignite if you put a naked flame to it.
We see on the video that you appear to have to some extent tried to replicate different possibilities. Is that why you made folds in the bedding?---That's correct, yes. I made folds in the bed for the possibilities of a cigarette being thrown in and landing into a fold et cetera, along those lines, so I just set up different scenarios to see what the outcome would be.
But of course you weren't able to replicate C25 in terms of whether the bed was made or not. You simply made the bed?--We simply made the bed. That's correct.
And you weren't able to replicate whether the bedding was on the floor or on the bed in a messed up condition or anything like that?---That's correct. We were unable to determine that."