The Evidence of Mr Hogan, Mr Sinclair, Mrs Kennedy and Mr Walker
11 Evidence was given by four members of the claim group, namely, Bruce Hogan, Daniel Sinclair who is the second applicant, Betty Kennedy who is the third applicant, and Lennard Walker. Much of this evidence was uncontentious and need only be referred to briefly. The evidence was taken in a makeshift courtroom in a large community hall in Tjuntjuntjarra over two days in September 2013. It had been intended to take this evidence on country, but weather conditions did not permit that to be done. However, at the end of the hearing there was a short excursion onto country at which the Court heard some communal evidence by the roadside. The significance of this evidence will be referred to later in these reasons for judgment. It is first necessary to refer to the evidence of the witnesses taken at Tjuntjuntjarra.
12 Mr Hogan was born in May 1955 in the bush in South Australia near the Western Australia border in Kulal. He claims rights in the application area through his father, who was born at Lingka in the Spinifex Native Title Determination Area.
13 Mr Hogan's life story is mirrored in the stories of other members of the claim group. He explained what happened when he was perhaps eight or nine:
MR HOGAN: … then we have to left that place. Just before the nuclear - nuclear bomb was going to be taking place in Maralinga. And we - we've walked across this - across the border and are now looking for - for the families of - that was in that land. But they've already has left and thing and we was the last lot of families roaming round looking for families that time.
MR BLOWES: Yes.
MR HOGAN: And we - we couldn't find them, so we started walking back just into the middle - middle the land there till - till we met one of the missionaries that came - was couple of white - white fellas and a couple of Aboriginal people that - they come across and started looking for us and they picked us up and - and then we - they took us into Cundeelee then.
14 Cundeelee was a mission east of Kalgoorlie. Members of the claim group later left Cundeelee to establish a new community a little to the south at Coonana on the Trans Australian Railway Access Road.
15 Mr Hogan explained what happened next:
MR HOGAN: … the elders of this lands there, they started talking about when they going to move back and go back to their home own home ground and things and - what they left and went away. And the bigger - big move was - didn't - didn't took us far, so they - they've moved on - they found a - found a water site in the station property - - -
…
And that place was Double Pump.
16 Double Pump is about halfway between the southern boundary of the application area and the Trans Australian Railway Line.
17 Then, members of the claim group moved north east, yet closer to the application area, and settled at Yakatunya. Here, the community acquired funding as compensation resulting from the Maralinga nuclear testing on their country. They used this funding to buy a bulldozer and grader. With that equipment they made a road back to their country and created the settlement at Tjuntjuntjarra.
18 Mr Sinclair was born in May 1970 in Kalgoorlie and now lives in Boulder, a suburb of Kalgoorlie. He claims through his father who was born in the east of the application area. Mr Sinclair also grew up in Cundeelee.
19 Mrs Kennedy was born in February 1954 in Kalgoorlie. She claims rights through her mother. She was with the community as it shifted out of the desert to Cundeelee and then back to country via Double Pump, Yakatunya and then Tjuntjuntjarra. She left Tjuntjuntjarra for Kalgoorlie three or four years ago because her husband became sick and needed dialysis.
20 Mr Walker was born in the bush near Kurala la and the Watala Rockhole and lived around Pipalyatjara or Mount Davis. In due course he joined the other members of the claim group at Cundeelee and ultimately moved with them to Tjuntjuntjarra.
21 Mr Walker was born "a long time ago, no motorcar".
22 Mr Walker said that in his early days "never seen the white people". In an exchange which was revealing of his background Mr Walker was asked:
MR BLOWES: … And what did you reckon about white people?
23 And he replied:
LENNARD WALKER: When I seen that white face at first time they's never been seen - never been seen a white - white man. Yes, I seen a first white man I seen, I took off and run away.
24 There was evidence, which was not contested, from each of the four indigenous witnesses of how they acquired knowledge of laws and customs from their old people.
25 Mr Hogan went through law at Cundeelee. He identified a number of old men who were in the courtroom during the hearing who taught young people about the law, and Mr Hogan said that many of his old teachers had now died. Mr Hogan has been involved in law business in many places including in the Northern Territory and in South Australia. Indeed, the hearing occurred just as law business in Tjuntjuntjarra concluded. Mr Hogan explained:
MR BLOWES: Alright. And have there been people from Warburton here recently?
MR HOGAN: Yes, they - they have passed through here - - -
MR BLOWES: When did they leave here?
MR HOGAN: - - - when we be - when we live - when we took over operating. And they - they pass through this thing from Warburton, Wiluna Jameson, Blackstone, you know.
MR BLOWES: What about - what about recently? When did they last - - -
MR HOGAN: They just started - over in - only just left about two days ago, And lot of them - lot of them have gone up to Australia and left on - in that -couple of days and they paint it on they wouldn't wear that.
MR BLOWES: Yes.
MR HOGAN: And - - -
MR BLOWES: I see you've got some red colouring in your hair. What's that?
MR HOGAN: That's a - that - that's a - the traditions of our - our tribal laws and things and you could - you know? And that - that - that thing then represent you - you know, those people are - they carry that - laws and things and, you know?
MR BLOWES: Is that - - -
MR HOGAN: The proper other traditional owners, you know? We - we - we don't - - -
MR BLOWES: Have you got that red in your hair because of some things happening here recently?
MR HOGAN: Yes. We - we just had a thing, and I did - you know, it's only just - just it's a red ochre that - that - that are on there.
MR BLOWES: Yes. So it was the final part of some law business that was here in Tjuntjuntjarra - - -
MR HOGAN: That's it and that run - - -
MR BLOWES: - - - just a couple of nights ago.
MR HOGAN: - - - and then we - we just finish.
26 Mr Sinclair was taken at Tjuntjuntjarra to go through the law and learnt from people of the previous generation. Mrs Kennedy learnt the stories of her people particularly from her maternal grandmother, with whom she wandered in the bush, from her mother, from her uncle Roy Underwood who sat with her whilst she gave evidence at the hearing, and from other relatives, particularly Fannie Willis, with whom she lived after her mother died.
27 Mr Walker went through the law at Cundeelee. He said:
I learning from the old people then and learning full up kid because old people I learning from them.
28 Nor was there any dispute that members of the claim group took and used resources for personal use and sustenance. It is thus unnecessary to set out that evidence.
29 Mr Hogan, Mr Sinclair, Mrs Kennedy, and Mr Walker all gave evidence that under their laws they owned the land and were entitled to take and use the resources for any purpose.
30 Mr Hogan said:
MR HOGAN: … what's on this - top of this surface of this land we walk in and drive in, alright? That's our - our - land. What's under the - under the ground of this - in this - in this land. We own that. That - that's our traditional owners type things. The sacred things that, you know - that they can't take anything from - from Aboriginal people. What - what's on top of that - the surface of this land, as well as under - underneath of this ground.
MR BLOWES: Alright.
MR HOGAN: And these people own - own that, together.
31 This passage came at the end of a segment of evidence which does not read very coherently on transcript, but which conveyed a meaning when the evidence was given in Court where it was possible to observe the manner in which Mr Hogan gave the evidence. The questioning concerned the Pilki concept of ownership of country. Mr Hogan clearly conveyed the view that the Pilki People had the right to determine how the land was used - "that's their every right". He said that his people should not be going to the government to ask what they can do with their land, "[g]overnment's got nothing to do with it". He said that his people do not want white people telling them what to do with the land - "this is my land. It's our land." He explained that the Pilki People had been approached by mining companies and initially had refused permission for mining on the country. He said that later people "gave in". Mr Hogan disagreed with the decision. He explained how the Pilki People were able to say no initially:
[F]rom start was no, no mining or anything. Because this is - this is the Aboriginal people's land and what - what's on this land is - is valuable. Valuable things like this is for the people, you know?
32 Asked whether there are traditional laws about making and selling paintings of Pilki country, Mr Hogan said:
MR HOGAN: … you can come up from your own homeland and say, "I'll paint this. I'll paint a" - no. This is our - this is our traditional owners who are painting. They are - they are actually painting they own birthplace. You know?
MR BLOWES: And, Anangu [Aboriginal] way, can traditional owner from one country paint the birthplace or country from another area?
MR HOGAN: You can't go and - you can't go across the - across the border and paint somebody else's place, or Tjukurr. You have to - you have to be - you have to be a totally - where you - where you're born, where your ngurra, where your Tjukurr. You - you - you are responsible for that - that birthplace. That's where you born, you do your own paintings - - -
…
MR HOGAN: … Ngurra is Land.
MR BLOWES: Whose land?
MR HOGAN: These traditional people here.
33 In an exchange with the Court following examination in chief, Mr Hogan explained the source of rights in land as follows:
HIS HONOUR: Yes. Thank you. Mr Hogan, I wonder if you can just explain one thing to me that's come out of your evidence. You said that the people have every right to take what's on the land, you said, because that is theirs. You remember saying that just now?
MR HOGAN: Yes, I did.
HIS HONOUR: And does that right - does that come from some rule in the Anangu way?
MR HOGAN: That is a - that is - this is a traditional law. We - we stick by by one law, and that law is all - intent in that law is a rule. And that's where - that's where the elders that have - that have laid their rules and things, that thing there. Because I - I - and this - this one is - is really for the purpose of these people. That's the people that have lived in - - -
HIS HONOUR: Yes.
MR HOGAN: - - - in this country.
HIS HONOUR: So can - can you explain to me where that - where those rules come from?
MR HOGAN: Those are - those are - those are rules that I - in our own - own - own way of thinking. These rules and things, this has been laid out way back in the Centuries and things before our times and before their - their times. You - you may be - they probably go way back to 1918 something, way back, before first - our first lot of people that lived on that land. And that - those rules are - they have existed in that Dreamtime, and it's - it's - it's there for the purpose of this - of - for the traditional people. And that - that laws and -and everything has been carried up ever since …
34 During cross-examination, Mr Hogan made clear his view that the Pilki People had the right under traditional law to control the taking and use of resources without hindrance, particularly from government.
MR HOGAN: … this my land. Now, this - this was in one State. One time - once upon a time, this is - this land was for traditional people. And I can't see why we can just - just get up and just go and pull all the sandalwoods in the thing. But the only thing that the matter got - that cut us off, what's - what's - what this governments have come behind. They've done it, just behind, when - when we are taking to mission - mission. Alright?
Because I am - I am positive and sure that in - in those days, this - this tradition and this business of this - this National Parks - National Park and all this wildlife thing, it's where you - has - has come across and - I don't know how they - how they put all this thing and say, "Keep away. You can't - you can't get - you can't pull" thing; "Hey. That's my - that's my land". And that's what we should be telling the governments…
MR QUINLAN: Yes.
MR HOGAN: - - - you know? "You can't tell us what - what to - what to go and get off our land", that Wildlife National Parks and things, craps. I said, "You - you only come and put that thing on behind"- - -
35 Mr Sinclair said "[w]hat's there on the land is theirs". And that which is under the land, "they belong to us". He explained that under traditional law the traditional owners could refuse mining companies permission to mine on the country. The Pilki People can make artefacts from timber on the land "because it belong to them", and under traditional law, the Pilki People have a right to sell those artefacts.
36 Mrs Kennedy said that all the things on the country such as lizards, bardi or witchetty grubs, marlu or kangaroo, salt bush and trees "all belong to us", "to the traditional owners of that place'. In the following exchanges Mrs Kennedy explained that strangers are not entitled to come and take resources of the Pilki country without permission.
MR BLOWES: … if a stranger came in and started cutting down a tree or anything like that, would that be regarded - considered as okay by Anangu or is that not?
MRS KENNEDY: No, they mustn't.
…
MR BLOWES: And if you went to somebody else's country and there was a lot of sandalwood there and you thought you could make a business there Anangu way, can you do that or can you - or you have to - - -
MRS KENNEDY: No, I can't go onto somebody else's country and do it.
37 She also explained that if a mining company wanted to mine on the country, it must seek permission from the old people.
38 Mr Walker also gave evidence that the animals on the land "belong to the people" and that the people "own the ground".
39 There was also some evidence of activities involving the use of resources of the country for sale. Mr Hogan told of the sale of paintings of the country made by elders, and also of the sale to tourists of necklaces made from seeds. Mr Sinclair spoke of the sale of artefacts. Mrs Kennedy made and sold baskets and said that clap-sticks with burnt decoration and spears were sold. Mr Walker said that artefacts are sold to white people in the town. He also gave evidence of young people shooting and selling rabbits.
40 The evidence given by Mr Hogan, Mr Sinclair, Mrs Kennedy and Mr Walker, particularly the evidence concerning the traditional laws and customs concerning the right to take and use resources, was given without elaboration and seemed somewhat truncated.
41 There are reasons why the evidence was not expansive. It was clear that the courtroom environment was unfamiliar and strange to these witnesses. The legal environment appeared outside their comfort zone. They were probably more reticent than they might have been in other circumstances. Apart from Mr Sinclair, each of the witnesses is elderly and has come from a remote traditional desert background. Further, the hearing was well attended by people from the community, including people whom the witnesses identified as community elders. Some limitation in the evidence given probably came from the parameters imposed by the presence of others who were more appropriate to speak on certain matters under the laws and customs of the people. An important factor expressed by Mr Hogan was a concern about how much information could properly be revealed to strangers. When asked by the Court to elaborate on certain dreamtime stories concerning the creation of traditional laws, Mr Hogan said:
MR HOGAN: Yes, there is. And when we - when we talk about laws and thing and that - that things, we quickly just talk about laws and things and - and beside - it's prohibited to be - to be talked in front of - - -
HIS HONOUR: Yes.
MR HOGAN: - - - ladies and things in this court and things. There is - yes, there is. And in - in - in a confidential place - - -
HIS HONOUR: Yes.
MR HOGAN: - - - you know, can be - can be discussed, those sort of - - -
42 And further:
HIS HONOUR: Only men. But you can say this much: that there are Stories that you know, but you can't tell in this particular environment.
MR HOGAN: True. That is true. Because if I - if I'm - I'm saying my - my Stories in here, I've got - I've got the elders just right in front of me.
HIS HONOUR: Yes.
MR HOGAN: And they are - they are - they are listening in to whatever questioning is come from there, and if I start talking the law and things. And they know what I'm - what I'm - what I'm talking about. I not - I have to be on the side track to - to let the court know and - and not - not get into where - where it's really confidential.
43 Although the other witnesses did not articulate this concern, it is probable in the circumstances that they were similarly affected by those concerns.
44 There was also a certain sense of distraction and weariness in the way these witnesses gave evidence. This was probably because the community had just finished law business. Indeed, when Mr Hogan appeared as a witness he was still covered in the red ochre used in ceremonial practice.
45 Dr Cane, the anthropologist engaged by the applicants who was present when the evidence was given, provided the following insight which I accept:
I know the people and I know - I don't know if this helps the court, but I might just elaborate it if I can in the context of the hearing, but I'll speak fairly frankly, but I don't want to be accusative in the context of doing that. But, for example, the hearing started on the morning and that night the business had finished at four o'clock in the morning.
Daniel Sinclair, and I say this again, I don't know how this is transcribed, but he's been associated with four murders in the community and he just come out of gaol from having murdered a woman for which he got 18 months goal for, and the community's distressed. But this is behind the scenes because they know well, if he murdered a white woman he would have got more than 18 months.
He's also giving evidence in the same room as Betty Kennedy, and Betty Kennedy's son has taken the wrap for murder of a woman who was raped and left - found days later partly eaten by dogs. So, all that's been played out in the courtroom. So, Daniel, when he's giving evidence, mindful of Betty sitting there and these senior lawmen, and not knowing when he comes out from the courtroom whether he's going to be badly speared and beaten himself for the punishment he's going to receive from the western cause is pretty strict [sic].
So that there's a lot of things in that courtroom pervading, so I know those things because I know the people. So, the evidence has to be contextualised in that way.
46 Having said this, there is no reason that the evidence, so far as it goes, should not be accepted at face value. There is no doubt that it was given without any guile and was genuine. Insofar as there are gaps in the elaboration of the relevant laws and customs, they were addressed by the evidence of Dr Cane.
47 Some further insight into the nature of the traditional laws and customs was provided on a brief trip onto the country itself. This was arranged after a break in the bad weather allowed for a short visit. The reaction of the indigenous witnesses on-country confirmed that they have a deep identification with it and a detailed knowledge of the stories which are embedded in the physical area of their country. Some of the witnesses pointed out dreaming tracks in the vicinity of the place of the visit in such a way as to demonstrate the complete integration between the stories from which the traditional laws and customs emanated and their everyday life. The State, correctly and respectfully, did not, and could not, challenge the evidence of the indigenous witnesses that the traditional laws and customs which gave the claim group complete control over their country, including all that was on, in and under it.