Business continuity
79 In relation to her role in the business, Charlene gave the following evidence in addition to that set out at [76] above:
- - - but in May 2018, you were an office manager. And who did you work for then?---Elite Scaffold.
When you say "Elite Scaffold", are you describing a company name?---Yes.
What is the full company name?---Elite Scaffold Australia.
80 In later cross-examination in relation to her role in the business, Charlene said:
But between 2007 and May 2019 you had more or less the same job?---More or less the same job. I would definitely say that, as I mentioned yesterday, there were periods of time where I was probably more involved and more of a, I guess - I wouldn't say able to make too many decisions on my own. But I guess I had a bit more leeway and a bit more freedom to kind of be my role, I suppose; whereas, as, you know, the last few years definitely I took a much more reserved approach. And I took steps back, and - yes, I wouldn't say that my role was the same as it was, like, all the way through.
I understand. And in the last few years I think you said your role was more reserved and it has changed somewhat?---Mmm.
And what was the catalyst for that?---Well, Steve and I were having a lot of differing opinions at that point. Our relationship was deteriorating further. I guess he was professionally moving in a direction at times that I didn't agree with or making decisions that I didn't agree with, and we would butt heads over things and ways to handle, you know, particular comings and goings of the business. So at that point, you know, there were times when I sort of threw my hands in the air and essentially quit, and I guess there were situations that we sort of didn't really recover from in that sense. So I would come back at times and perform, I guess, a less-involved role.
And I recall yesterday you saying that - I think you said after - and please correct me if I get this wrong. But I think you said after July 2016 when you weren't living in the property you felt like a bit of a vagrant. I think that was your word yesterday?---Mmm.
And so my question is does this change - in the relationship that you've been describing, does that more or less coincide with you moving out of the property in July 2016?---God. I guess. Yes, I suppose you would say that.
Because the business was, up until July 2016, and still is, since July 2016, run out of this property. Is that correct?---Yes. There were - it's not - wasn't solely run out of the property. There were rental properties where he would store scaffolding, and there would be offices at times that he would run from there or - yes, it wasn't solely always run out of the Rouse Hill property. Like, the registered address was there and things like that. But - - -
I understand?---Sorry. Yes.
No. No, it's helpful because the sense that I was getting through some of your answers yesterday and through what you've been describing this morning is that it was, for a large period of time - and we will be more precise in a moment - very much a joint endeavour, this business between the two of you?---The businesses were always, I think, in some part, you know, periodically joint endeavours. They would be - we would run things quite well together, and things would work out well for a period of time. And then at other times they weren't working well, and we would sort of have blow ups. And we would go our separate ways, and, you know, he would do his thing and conduct things his way. And I would do my thing and conduct things my way, and - yes, it was a real sort of to and fro a lot of the time.
And July 2016 is one of the times where it was a fro, if you like. That was a point at which you went your own way?---Yes, probably earlier than that. But I think at that point, like, for me the business relationship was beyond repair or beyond, you know, my capacity to function in every day with him, and then certainly any - sorry, certainly any prospects that I thought that perhaps a relationship - a personal relationship with him could be salvaged then, you know, around that time it was just like - to me it was just not going to work. I sort of gave up.
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I wasn't meaning to ask you about who was pulling more weight or anything in the nature. I was really just looking for a - to understand whether the nature of the tasks that you were performing compared to the nature of the tasks that he was performing remained more or less the same during the time that you worked together?---Yes. Again, there were, you know - there's obviously a lot of opportunity here for me to really kind of go into the nature of Steve and what working with him was like. But there were definitely times where he was just mentally unmotivated and incapable of committing, I think, for months and months at a time. I think he sort of bit off more than he could chew a lot of the time and had a lot of balls in the air, and I think a lot of that pressure came down on me to keep things running, keep operational and try and keep him sort of doing what he needed to do. And so - yes, at times I think it was unfairly weighted in that sense. I was more the consistent one, and he was more the one that threw everything at the situation periodically and then would retreat into nothingness.
I understand. But, if I could put it this way, you never went out and got the required certificates and passes so that you could install scaffolding?---No, that wasn't necessary. Steve had the necessary qualifications, and anybody that we hired, whether it be subcontractors or employees - they were all required to have, you know, working at heights licenses and high-risk licenses and things like that. So it wasn't a requirement for me specifically to have those.
No. And, likewise, he never got better at record keeping or learned how to do the bookkeeping or - - -?---He did. He did because there were definitely periods in time where I sort of told him to jump and he could handle it all on his own. So he had to learn how to do things.
81 In cross-examination, Charlene gave the following evidence:
Now, you said before - you used the word businesses before. You said the businesses were - I was asking you whether the business was a joint endeavour, and you then used the term businesses. Do you mean to indicate by that that there were different businesses?---There was, I think, only at ever one time two operating businesses operating simultaneously. The rest of the time it would be one.
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Well, I just mean that there was, at one time, two different companies operating side by side, your company Elite Equipment and the company Combined Scaffolds?---Yes.
Combined Scaffolds then was wound up?---Yes.
And Elite Equipment was left alone for a while. Later on - and we will go through the sequence of this - another company was incorporated, I think called Elite Equipment Australia?---Yes.
And my question is although they were companies operating in a strict legal sense - different companies operating it was, at all times, the same business, the same endeavour?---Yes. Yes.
All right?---Whether that be an endeavour that was operated off my back of Steve's back or my brother was invested for a while there before he moved. So - - -
I understand?---Yes. We were really trying to, I guess, make a success story out of working in a family-operated situation.
… Then in April 2007, liquidators were appointed to Combined Scaffolds, and you said before that thereafter, the Combined Scaffolds business was effectively run through Elite Equipment?---Yes.
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After April 2007, Steven commenced working for your company, Elite Equipment, and he worked for Elite Equipment, didn't he, until that company was wound up, effectively?---I believe he worked for that company for - whether it was entirely for every single month of those years, I don't recall, but he definitely worked for the company.
Elite Equipment then had a year of trading profitably in 2008. Does that sound right?---I guess so.
And another year of trading profitably in 2009?---Mm.
But on 22 December 2009, a liquidator was appointed to Elite Equipment?---Yes.
And that was a result of the dispute about this transfer of scaffolding equipment that we were talking about before?---Yes, that's right. I took steps to put the company into voluntary liquidation, I think it's called.
And prior to doing that - you can take it from me that occurred on 22 December 2009. Prior to doing that, on 4 December 2009, you incorporated the company called CSW Group Proprietary Limited. Does that sound right?---Yes.
And the same day, also on 4 December 2009, a company called Elite Equipment Australia Proprietary Limited was also incorporated. Does that sound right?---Yes.
It was incorporated by John Bonner, your brother. You recall that?---Yes.
Why was that done?---That was under professional advice, again, that I received with this situation. I had legal advice pertaining to the proceedings that were to do with the transaction, as I discussed, the $290,000 transaction. So I went to solicitors and I got advice with respect to the situation, and when it was established that putting the company into voluntary liquidation was the best course of action, that was what I did. And, again, there was - it meant that there was a situation that there was employees to look after and works in progress, and it was, you know, a situation where my brother then decided he would step up and have a go at it. He was a very competent scaffolder and a leading hand, and he was very good at his job, so he wanted to try and make something of it as well.
The solicitor that you went to see at around this time, was it also Philip Bell?---No.
In July 2017, the Commissioner petitioned for the winding up of Elite Equipment Australia?---Yes.
And is that because of unpaid tax debts?---I believe so.
And shortly thereafter, in September 2017, a new company was incorporated by Steven this time, called Elite Scaffold Australia Proprietary Limited. Do you recall that?---Just - yes. I would like to state, though, that during 2016 there was, you know, a period - 2016, 2017, there were period of time that I was not working as an employee for that company. For several years, I would have deemed myself an employee, as I've said before, but, again, the daily operations and the company's goings were all Steven's responsibility. He was the director. He's the director of Elite Scaffold Australia. He proceeded to continue to operate, and it's really got nothing to do with me any more.