Cross-examination of Richard "Hadlee" Hyacinth Tungatalum
778 In cross-examination Richard Tungatalum confirmed that his skin group was Pandanus. He confirmed that skin groups were part of Aboriginal kinship on the Tiwi Islands. He described himself as a leader for Munupi people and "for the whole Tiwi, upcoming". He said that all Tiwi people worked together. He agreed that someone from one clan could not say what the story of another clan is, but said there were cultural links creating connections between the clans. He agreed that if someone wanted to do something on another clan's land, they would need to ask for permission. He said that he was connected through his mother to Jikilaruwu country, that he grew up on Jikilaruwu country and that he was shown Jikilaruwu dances and heard Jikilaruwu stories and song lines:
Q: But you are not Jikilaruwu?
A: Well, yes, I'm not Jikilaruwu, but there were people sharing, that lived together in a place and told story, so these stories from thousands of years, it's not only from one particular group. They have been - a group came from each area. They had a big - big tribal ceremony, and they share, and they each one bring songs and they came up with this. So from that, it's passed on to our generation today.
779 Richard Tungatalum confirmed that Jikilaruwu Elders included Danny Munkara, Eulalie Munkara, Molly Munkara, Magdeline Kelantumama and Marie Frances Tipiloura.
780 He said that song lines were about spirituality and belief. He agreed that they were connected to the living world and the environment, and that animals and the things that lived in the environment were all connected with song lines. When asked whether bad things could happen if song lines were disturbed, Richard Tungatalum said, "Well, the law - you break the law. That's something will come. The law, the Tiwi law. Things happen".
781 Richard Tungatalum acknowledged that he had attended meetings with Dr Corrigan and Dr O'Leary. He said he thought it was important to attend to pass on knowledge about his culture. He agreed that he had been shown maps at the meeting with Dr O'Leary, and that it was the first time he had seen those things.
782 Richard Tungatalum was questioned about a number of statements he had made to Dr Corrigan or his team, recorded in notes taken of various meetings and an interview. He agreed that he had told Dr Corrigan: "The rainbow serpent, Ampiji, it covers the whole area" and "That Ampiji on the west, it goes in the ocean waters as well." He told the Court the Ampiji in the ocean "Goes out to the ocean water, but guarding the coastline". When asked whether he had said that a rainbow serpent looks after both islands, he said "through the coastal, coastal area. Not to the ocean".
783 Richard Tungatalum agreed that he had told Dr Corrigan at the March Corrigan meeting, "You can't disturb Ampiji, can you" and, "One of the things you can't do is that you can't throw honey in the sea, or you will disturb that Ampiji" and, "If in the dry season you see a rain starting, the old people will know that the serpent is getting up". He agreed that was an example of how, if you break the Ampiji song line, you change the environment.
784 Richard Tungatalum agreed that he had told Dr Corrigan "The serpent is guarding the island, including out in the ocean" and "Tiwi was more wider a long time ago in that Ice Age, the lower water time". He told the Court that when he referred to the ocean he referred to the place that could be seen through the eyes of his people, "not way, way, way out. It through where the eye can see".
785 Richard Tungatalum agreed that he had also told Dr Corrigan "People must have been leave things and burial and ceremony down underwater now" and "People call out to their old people underwater to keep it safe".
786 Richard Tungatalum agreed that he had participated in an interview with a person named Stephanie Rusden around 11 May 2023 for the purposes of Dr Corrigan's report. He agreed that he had expressed a concern in that interview about maritime life like turtles and that he had made a reference to impacts on ancestors. When asked what impact he was talking about, he said:
Well, through our culture and law, can belong to the other clan or group, but in a way, in the ocean, we do have a reef closer to our land and that's where a lot of turtles moves and even the sand - even the beach, to lay their eggs. So that - talking about the effect but in our shoreline, near, but not further.
787 Richard Tungatalum agreed that he had referred in the interview to "Sacred burials that may now be underwater because of sea level change". He said that when he had said, "underwater", he was not referring to a place "way, way out in the ocean" but a place near the coast and inland and not in the ocean.
788 Richard Tungatalum agreed that he had referred in the interview to a rainbow serpent but denied saying that the serpent goes into the ocean. He said, "She is a keeper. She guards the coastline on both Tiwi, the surrounds of both islands". He denied that he had referred in the interview to Ampiji being a sea god who looked after the ocean. He said that he might have referred to the sea, but not the ocean.
789 Richard Tungatalum agreed that he had said in the interview "If you do something wrong, Ampiji will cause bad things to happen to the land and the sea" and "The pipeline will awaken our ancestors as it is not natural". The cross-examination continued:
Q: And did you say those words to Stephanie?
A: Well, I said it to Stephanie but, you know, if the pipeline is closer to our shore where and - but our people have been travelling to islands, not in the ocean, only close to the shore.
Q: Is it true that the pipeline will awaken your ancestors because it is not natural?
A: Well, in a way, it can awaken our ancestors who aren't Ampiji but if they're not where the pipeline is putting, it's way, way far from our spirits and our ancestors. It's way away, a long way.
790 Richard Tungatalum later said:
… but saying this, our ancestors are our spiritual people. Our belief. So if the pipe is where our - my people travel, but I know my people didn't travel far, far, far away. They only travelled all along the coast to neighbouring island or inland, closer, but spirit, the pipeline is way, way out. It won't harm or affect my ancestors or my spiritual belief.
791 Richard Tungatalum agreed that he had used the words "awaken the sea" in the interview. When asked why he had said that, he said that he was not thinking slowly, nor concentrating while talking.
792 Richard Tungatalum was questioned about further statements he had made at the May Corrigan Meeting (on 31 May 2023) which many others attended. He agreed that at that meeting he said that he thought Tiwi people should have land rights or sea rights out in the deep water. He said that the Tiwi did not own the ocean water, that they owned an area from the inland to the sea of four kilometres "but not to the ocean". He said that ownership beyond that territory into Commonwealth waters had never been talked about since the Tiwi Land Council had been established.
793 Richard Tungatalum agreed that at the May Corrigan Meeting, Valentine Intalui pointed out that Tiwi culture did not stop at the end of NT waters. When asked whether it was his view that a Native Title claim should be made in relation to the deep ocean, he said that it should be looked at in the long term, but it never had been put by his people that the ocean belonged to them. He said, "Never. It's only that travel closer to the sea and back". He said it was for his people to look at and repeated that it had not previously been raised.
794 When asked about a Jikilaruwu song line covering everything under the sea, Richard Tungatalum said that his ancestors did not speak in terms of kilometres or miles, but instead said, "out in the sea where eyes could see". He agreed that he heard Valentine Intalui saying that "it even reaches the sunset", and added, "but where our eyes can see".
795 Richard Tungatalum agreed that he heard Therese Bourke tell Dr Corrigan that she had seen Ampiji coming out of the water. He stated that her cousin had told a story about Ampiji on the coast near Munupi country, but added that was "not way, way out" rather closer to named places on Munupi land. He also agreed that Molly Munkara had told Dr Corrigan about seeing the head of Ampiji coming up with ripples behind, adding that Ampiji is told in different ways and explained in different ways.
796 Richard Tungatalum was asked whether at the meeting with Dr Corrigan he had started a discussion about the sea level being lower and people using the area that was not covered by the sea. He responded:
Well, you know, the thing is, we see fiction, and also things make you believe. That might be true or not. So there are things that we will look on the television. Well, television never come to our island until 1970 or 80s, so as grown up, you know, these things maybe are not - not right, not true, actually.
797 Richard Tungatalum was then asked whether he had said to Dr O'Leary, "They did totem ceremony and buried people. Show respect". His answer was non-responsive. He instead referred to the map he had been shown at the June O'Leary Workshop. He said, "The land was there, but our ancestors or our Tiwi great-great-grandparents, fathers, they never actually talk about it, and when I saw the piece of paper, it's like making me believe".
798 It was suggested to Richard Tungatalum that his prior statements to Dr Corrigan had been made at a meeting some three weeks before he had first met with Dr O'Leary. He responded:
… what was that is my poison ought to know the real story because the pictures are showing. The pictures can be - you can believe or not believe because the law is passed on, and we still have - today we still believe, but that has never been talked about for a long time - for, I don't know, many thousands of years ago.
799 The cross-examination continued:
Q: I want to suggest to you that these notes record a meeting some three weeks before you first met Mick O'Leary?
A: What - well, in - what was that is my poison ought to know the really story because the pictures are showing. The pictures can be - you can believe or not believe because the law is passed on, and we still have - today we still believe, but that has never been talked about for a long time - for, I don't know, many thousands of years ago.
Q: I want to suggest to you that you said the words I read to you because you were told them by the older people?
A: What I am saying old people, saying they sit with you at the fire, telling you, you know, about the story, about our ancestors, our Tiwi greats saying that the water is there, but like, you are saying - the ocean does not belong. It's where they travel and back safely. That's what they believed.
Q: That's what the old people told you, that that land that's now covered by the water is where the ancestors travelled?
A: Well, where the tide goes out at the lower mark water. That's about it.
Q: I suggest to you that what you meant was not just when the tide goes out but when there was an ice age and the sea was hundreds of metres or kilometres out?
A: Well, like I said, you know, we see things, fiction with things. We believe that's true. True on my understanding is I don't believe it.
800 Richard Tungatalum agreed that he had heard Valentine Intalui say to Dr Corrigan that he believed a disaster would come. He said that according to Tiwi cultural law, when you did something that is not right, you're breaking the law, "that thing comes".
801 Richard Tungatalum also agreed that Valentine Intalui had said that "Ampiji is still with us". He said that he had gone through the cultural law with his grandfather. He said, "Ampiji maybe two, they say, but Ampiji was known that lives in Mungutuwu".
802 He agreed that Valentine Intalui was a Jikilaruwu man. He agreed that he had said at a meeting with Dr Corrigan that the right people go to country, and "you can't go to another man's country". He continued:
… but in turn, in respect to the Jikilaruwu people, if you ask for the Jikilaruwu people if you are not from there, they welcome you, they invite you to say yes, permission are given and that has been stated in the law of all Tiwi. Because of cultural dancing and everything, Tiwi was together.
803 When asked whether he thought that the maps shown to him by Dr O'Leary were important to the Tiwi people, he agreed that they were, but said that no one from his knowledge "had never been taught about these things". When asked whether he thought they were important because they showed with "white fella science" what he already believed was out there under the sea, he said:
I'm saying earlier fiction made me believe, you know, because we as Tiwi people work hard like our grandfathers and their grandfathers before them guarding our law, and like you said about the western way, that these things were never put to my people.
804 Richard Tungatalum agreed that at the June O'Leary Workshop he had said:
Some people are saying oh, there's nothing you can find. In the mainland you've got history like Kakadu. We are underwater and our land is there. There is proof of where our people walked.
805 He said that although he had said that, his Elders before him did not pass on the knowledge that he knew today about the land. He said that he had been to the workshop, but his Elders, grandfathers "and father before them, they never pass on". He repeated again that his people, his ancestors, had not passed on information Dr O'Leary had talked about.
806 It was put to Richard Tungatalum that he had said to Dr O'Leary, "The old people used to say that place where our ancestors used to meet". He said:
Well, I remember that, but I was - my mind wasn't thinking, because of that Kakadu 20,000 years ago. I was having my mind on Kakadu and stuff, but to this, I was saying that its really what - saying not really that I said.
807 When asked whether he had talked about ancestors meeting on land where the sea is now, he said that his ancestors used to walk the mainland of Australia.
808 Richard Tungatalum agreed that at the end of the June O'Leary Workshop he had said, "I think you need to come back and you need to present to everyone to understand. To others it was kept away". He said that "the white men came and brought this very new thing that not even my people knew about it. Never knew". He repeated that it was not a thing his forefathers had talked about.
809 Richard Tungatalum agreed that he had attended July Lewis Meeting (on 18 July 2023) with other Tiwi Islanders, Mr Lewis and lawyers from the EDO at which a map prepared by Dr O'Leary showing markings of a crocodile story and burial grounds was discussed. He said:
Like I was saying earlier, fiction or not believe. Pictures which are shown, yes, I think they have been drawn or put there, but, like I'm saying, my forefathers, grandfathers, fathers, it has never been passed on, that knowledge that we understand today.
810 When asked whether he was saying that the markings on the map were a fiction, he said:
Yes, they have been put there, but, like, saying this is about the crocodile and the lake out there, everything has been said, and I went back home and told about this, and it took me a few months to understand. This is never put, this was never taught to me, about all this. This just came when we came out of the sky, about the tracks.
811 It was put to Richard Tungatalum that he had not referred to the markings as being a fiction at the time that they were discussed in July 2023. He responded:
Well, people can make you believe and make you to believe what they believe and yes, I've been, but I've been foolish. I've been tricked. I've been playing a game. That to my knowledge, my understanding that I was asked quickly, push - made me to come and to believe and what I believe that - what my understanding is, is it's not true.
812 It was put to Richard Tungatalum that the lawyer from the EDO had asked what the impact of the pipeline would be, and that he had responded that the ancestors would be awakened and disturbed, and that it would cause damage and waves that had never been seen, and "We still believe this. When we go to the ocean, we call out to the spirits, to the gods". He agreed that he had said those words. When asked if that was truth, he said:
But, yes, when I say to the sea, like I said earlier, not to the ocean. It's where - where my eyes can see, and my grandfathers said. But disturbance is where - the law and where - how far the law is through our islands and the coast, but when saying that there were a lot of things was happening to our land and to our sea, not just in the Tiwi but other - elsewhere and this, the knowledge that I know that - and understand that disturbance is when you not respect our spiritual. Like saying someone was sitting down here, saying you got on the boat, but you need someone to call out to our people, spirits are with us. That's the law that is with Tiwi. You disrespect, things will come to you.
813 It was put to Richard Tungatalum that when he made his prior statement he had not been tricked, but was instead a proud Tiwi man telling the group what he believed the impact would be. He acknowledged again that he had attended the meetings and made the statements, but said that he looked back and looked into himself. He said he was "gathered around by the EDO and the Tiwi people" at the meetings. He said, "There is talk about that land out in the ocean from my people as well that will put me in the building".
814 Richard Tungatalum was reminded of a further statement that he had made to the effect that Dr Corrigan was working for Santos and was "on their side", and that the group needed Dr O'Leary to come, and that a map would "show them that there's something there". He said:
Yes, I remember saying but after that, all that talking I did to the EDO and everyone, I sat back and looked back and said yes, but what I did, the thing that I said is - was fast, rushed, I wasn't thinking straight. My mind was not clear, but the thing is, after all that, during the past month, I understand - I realised that things I said that yes, already in my head, but out there in the ocean, whatever, it's never pass on by our ancestors and I realised because my grandfather, he passed away at 90 years old and he had very strong cultural knowledge of song lines and everything. So I went back and think that this is not - what I said, later that I understand that I was looking back to my grandfather and saying that he didn't pass on this knowledge about the sea, about the land and sea. So I'm afraid that, like, there is nothing. I know what white men can think and my people, making us to believe, and when I was in that meeting it's like I've been not guided by my spirit and my people.
815 Richard Tungatalum agreed that he had spoken to Dr Corrigan at a meeting in May 2023 about freshwater that came up in the sea, and said that that was true. He did not agree that there were lots of stories from older people about freshwater that came from out in the ocean. He said that it came from where he went hunting for turtle and dugong. He agreed that there was freshwater at a place near Cape Fourcroy, but said it flowed down to the beach. He said it was not in the ocean, but inland.
816 It was put to Richard Tungatalum that he had also said, "There's honey in the sea, the Ampiji". He said that was wrong, but it was otherwise unclear whether he admitted making the statement.
817 Richard Tungatalum agreed that he had made a prior statement about tunnels of freshwater. He said that the water in the tunnel came from Papua New Guinea, and that he had found that out many years ago. He said that that was something that white men said. He said it was not about old people talking. He later repeated that the old people talked about freshwater in the shallow or hunting ground, where he went hunting. He said that there was a specific place that was sacred where the water comes up. He said "That's Imunga. Imunga".
818 Richard Tungatalum agreed that he went to a meeting with Dr Corrigan on 23 August 2023, where he had referred to a map prepared by Dr O'Leary and asserted that Tiwi people had walked there and that "it's still our spirt there". He continued:
But like I said earlier, said about white man story, white man belief, that's saying my knowledge and understanding of my people, my ancestors didn't pass on. So I had - myself and I think my - my people because of this - this belief of - which Mick O'Leary's seen, like, made me to believe. But my mind was thinking about my - my people, my ancestors. My forefathers, grandfather, my father. This thing didn't never pass on.
…
… white men make you believe, and that has been done to my people. They are made to believe, and going way, way back and to my people that have been done to my people. Misleading, mistreated. …
819 It was suggested to Richard Tungatalum that he had referred in the March Corrigan Meeting to people buried out at sea. It was suggested that he had been misleading by failing to include any reference to his prior statement about burials in his witness statement. He responded by acknowledging he had made statements of that kind, then said:
But I realised that it's not true because I had people, with EDO and the others, saying that crocodile and all that went - passed through, so that's why it made me to understand that there is a burial site. But to add understanding that it's not true.
820 The cross-examination continued:
Q: I want to suggest to you that it is rubbish that it was ever suggested to you by the EDO what your culture was?
A: Well, I am saying people, white men - sorry, but European can - can make you - to make you to say things that you not saying is true. Just making you to rush. And what I said to the people, you know, it's forcing me - forcing me - but it's not. What I realised that after - after I went - after this, I knew, all my time after, that my people, my ancestors, they have never been buried. Never story told, never pass on from generation to generation from today.
821 Richard Tungatalum referred again to going to meetings where lawyers from the EDO and Tiwi people were "all pushing" and referring to the Crocodile Man story. He said that he looked back at what he had been told about creation Dreamings, including Mudungkala that had been passed on. He said:
But this thing - like, my people to the EDO and the lawyers, they were their doing. But I put myself that - I said - what is taken is what is said in there, but after I realised that, they're not according to the law - customary law - of Tiwi. It's not true.
822 Richard Tungatalum was cross-examined on his desire to see more investment in the Tiwi Islands. He referred to people living in poverty and the lack of education. He referred to his people continuing to struggle. He described Tiwi people as going "through a hell, a lot of things". He said he had been arguing and arguing for services for his people but had not found an answer. He said:
We need to find something, a solution, something good because I cry for my people. I cry. I'm - I'm nearly in my - my ending, but I want to leave this for my generation.
823 He went on to say that he had three grandchildren and did not want to worry about them.
824 Richard Tungatalum said that culture was very important, that it had been there for a long time, passed on through generations. He said that his grandfather had told him about the tide, the moon and the stars, but that he believed that the pipeline was "way out from where our spirit, our story is told" and is not going to be affected. He concluded:
… but in cultural law, someone - the fella sitting here, he said he works on a boat and they had done some cultural - they call that - that's cultural thing. But, like saying, I know Santos or other, as I say, organisation or project out there, but the sea is our sea, but our spiritual there but when you've broken - if you broke the law, that will - that will come.
825 Counsel did not ask Richard Tungatalum to explain or elaborate on that final response.