Mrs El-Debel
84 Mrs El-Debel was not a reliable witness. In her affidavit sworn for this proceeding two weeks prior to the hearing, Mrs El-Debel acknowledged that her memory has been somewhat affected by a stroke and that she relies on the assistance of documents. Despite this acknowledgement, Mrs El-Debel gave quite a detailed account of relevant events, including evidence that a solicitor's file note was not an accurate record of her instructions.
85 In the witness box, Mrs El-Debel sought to portray herself as simultaneously forgetful and reliable, saying:
So I'm an old lady. I'm really forgetful. I forget things most of the time but I remember exactly what happened.
…
It's because everything that's happening is just too much for me. It was big shock for me, what happened and, yes, it's just too much.
86 Mrs El-Debel's evidence in the witness box concerning the Bankstown property conflicted with her affidavit evidence, in respects suggesting that she was not a truthful witness. In her affidavit, Mrs El-Debel explained that she had approached the bankrupt to assist her with buying the Bankstown property in 2003, and had satisfied herself that she could afford to service a loan over the property from rental income. As she put it, "I would be positively geared from the start". Mrs El-Debel recounted a conversation with the bankrupt in including words to the effect "I will be making all the repayments. The rent will cover everything. [You're] only on the loan documents to help get the finance I need".
87 In cross-examination, when asked whether she herself worked out how much rent she would need to charge, Mrs El-Debel stated "400". This figure corresponded with her affidavit evidence. When asked how much she thought the repayments were going to be, Mrs El-Debel stated "Between 1300 and 1200. No more". These figures also broadly corresponded with her affidavit evidence. However, when asked how the loan repayments were actually made, Mrs El-Debel made no reference to the expected rental income. The transcript records relevantly:
MR PESMAN:…[H]ow did you make those repayments through the life of the loan?
INTERPRETER: So it's - it's part of our culture whenever come - anyone comes to our house, whenever my children come to our house, they bring - bring me shopping, bring me everything I need. I didn't go shopping at all. And whenever I have visitors they always put money in my hand. They always give me cash. That's part of our culture.
88 Mrs El-Debel maintained this evidence in the following passage:
COURT: … Mrs El-Debel, you said earlier that before making the purchase of the property you calculated that you would have loan repayments of $1200 to $1300 per month to be paid on the loan for the Bankstown property; is that right?
INTERPRETER: Yes, correct.
COURT: Are you saying that you expected to be able to make those payments from cash gifts that would be brought by people to your house over the life of the loan?
INTERPRETER: Yes, of course. Whatever I receive as gifts I put towards this property.
COURT: So, I just want to make sure that I understand, before you bought the house you thought that you would be able to afford the loan repayments by various people coming to your house and giving you gifts; is that right?
MRS EL-DEBEL: Yes.
INTERPRETER: It's because I receive - I always receive cash gifts, so I thought the best thing is to put it towards a property.
COURT: So that's what you thought would happen…
MRS EL-DEBEL: Yes.
COURT: …before you bought - and, in fact, that's what happened; is that right?
MRS EL-DEBEL: Yes. Sorry, if I call anyone, if I need rentals in 2000, 5000, my granddaughters, because my father is 70 - 70, and everyone coming to my place not come in free.
COURT: And I just want to make sure I do understand what you're saying. So are you saying that every month from the time that you bought the property one or more people would bring this cash and then you would take it to the bank and deposit it to make the loan repayment?
INTERPRETER: Yes.
89 Not only was this evidence inconsistent with the earlier evidence that Mrs El-Debel had determined her capacity to service the loan to acquire the Bankstown property by reference to expected rentals, it is also inconsistent with the available bank statements concerning how payments on the loan were actually made. It is also fanciful to think that Mrs El-Debel would have decided to buy the Bankstown property on the basis of her expectation of cash gifts from family members.
90 Mrs El-Debel reiterated this unlikely version of events in the following exchange:
MR PESMAN: And your pension isn't enough money for you to pay this mortgage and for the rest of your expenses; is it?
INTERPRETER: It's not true because I don't have any expenses; my children buy everything for me.
MR PESMAN: All right. But you haven't been paying this mortgage from the pension; have you?
INTERPRETER: Of course not. It is from my children and from …
MRS EL-DEBEL: Grandchildren …
MR PESMAN: All right.
MRS EL-DEBEL: My nephew.
91 Mrs El-Debel also suggested that the apparent inconsistency between her evidence and the available bank statements was explicable by the fact that she gave her cash gifts to the bankrupt for depositing into the loan account relating to the Bankstown property. The following exchange took place:
MR PESMAN: … Now, were you giving your son, when he was making the repayments for you, the amount that was required by the bank or were you making extra payments?
INTERPRETER: I always gave him more. Whatever money I had with me, I gave it to him and asked him to put it towards these repayments.
MR PESMAN: All right. So that would be different amounts each time; is that right?
INTERPRETER: Of course.
92 When referred to bank statements which indicated fortnightly deposits of $2,900 over a period of about seven months, and asked to explain the apparent discrepancy between this and her evidence, Mrs El-Debel said:
INTERPRETER: So I gave him the money. It was cash, and he put it in his way.
93 There was then the following exchange:
MR PESMAN: Are you seriously saying to her Honour that, every two weeks, you gave Bachar exactly $2900 in cash to put into this home loan?
INTERPRETER: So whatever money I gave him, he used to deposit that money. I'm not a computer. I can't remember exactly the amount.
MR PESMAN: Are you seriously saying to her Honour that, every two weeks, you gave Bachar $2900 to put into the home loan? You're lying, now, aren't you, Mrs El-Debel?
INTERPRETER: No, I'm not lying.
MR PESMAN: And from August 2009, that amount increased to $3200 every fortnight. Do you recall that?
INTERPRETER: So whatever money I received, my pension payments for my 10 children, I put it towards these payments.
MR PESMAN: Are you seriously saying to her Honour that your children were giving you $6400 a month every month for six years to put into this mortgage?
INTERPRETER: Big family. Is all - is very good income. Everyone come in, ask. No one coming in and out, 500, 700, 1000. My grandchildren is very good payment too.
94 This evidence involved deliberate obfuscation on Mrs El-Debel's part. There is no credible evidence that Mrs El-Debel gave the bankrupt amounts in the order of $6,400 per month for several years from cash gifts and her pension. This evidence reveals that Mrs El-Debel was not frank about the extent of her knowledge concerning the regular payments made into the loan account relating to the Bankstown property.
95 Mrs El-Debel's affidavit also contained details which cast doubt on its reliability. The affidavit was sworn with the assistance of an interpreter, consistent with Mrs El-Debel's evidence that her English is limited. Having regard to her evidence concerning her memory and her life history, the affidavit is unusually detailed in some respects. In particular, Mrs El-Debel stated in her affidavit:
Bachar was placed under a controlling trustee on or about 14 April 2015. He attempted without success to enter into a Part X agreement with a controlling trustee now know[n] to me as Mr Aaron Lucan of Worrells.
96 The affidavit did not explain what Mrs El-Debel understood by the terms "controlling trustee" or "Part X arrangement", or how she came to recall the appointment of the controlling trustee on 14 April 2015 or whether that evidence was given by reference to documents. When the paragraph was translated to Mrs El-Debel in cross-examination, there was obvious confusion concerning the proper translation. When asked who was her son's controlling trustee in 2015, Mrs El-Debel said that she did not know. I was not satisfied that Mrs El-Debel's affidavit evidence set out above reflected her own recollection of events or that Mrs El-Debel understood the terms "controlling trustee" and "Part X arrangement".
97 Another matter that caused me concern about the reliability of Mrs El-Debel's evidence was her statement, in her affidavit that, to the best of her recollection, Bassam had repaid her "the initial amount" which she claimed to have lent Fallow in August 2011. In her affidavit, Mrs El-Debel stated:
57. In 2011 My son Bassam approached me and asked to borrow funds from me, at the time he said to me, words or words to the effect of:
BASSAM: Hi mum, I'm in need of a loan for my company. I can repay you back shortly.
ME: How much do you need?
BASSAM: As much as you can?
ME: I will check and let you know.
58. As the unit continued to be rented the returns were steady and the rental income would cover the loan repayments, on this basis I was confident in lending the money.
59. On or about 17 August 2011 I advance the sum of $78,723.81.
60. To the best of my recollection the initial amount was repaid, however I do not recall receiving any interest repayments.
98 The amount of $78,675.21 was withdrawn from funds in an account in the names of the bankrupt and Mrs El-Debel and was applied to the purchase of the first Peakhurst property.
99 In cross-examination, the following exchange took place concerning this loan:
MR PESMAN: Has the loan you say you made to Bassam been repaid?
INTERPRETER: Not all of them.
MR PESMAN: Well, how much has been repaid?
INTERPRETER: So he gave me some payments. I don't know exactly how much. I leave it all to him and his conscience.
MR PESMAN: Right. When did he make these repayments?
INTERPRETER: So whenever he could he would give me payments, but I didn't calculate exactly how much he gave me.
MRS EL-DEBEL: Because I trust him. I trust him.
100 This evidence was inconsistent with the recollection of repayment recorded Mrs El-Debel's affidavit. When further questioned about this, Mrs El-Debel's evidence was no clearer:
COURT: But you say now that you left it to his conscience to repay, and that is a different thing from recalling that the initial amount was repaid. Do you agree with me that those things are different?
INTERPRETER: Yes, that's right, I do trust him. It's just that's my money, that's my right, and I have to ask for that money.
COURT: It seems to me, from what you've said in the witness box today, that you don't recall that the full amount was repaid, because you don't know exactly how much he paid and you left it to his conscience. Is that fair?
INTERPRETER: So maybe he recorded these amounts. Sometimes he gives me money, sometimes he takes, sometimes he gives, sometimes he takes. So it's like this all the time. Maybe he have - he has some records. I don't know.
COURT: I'm focussing on your affidavit, Mrs El-Debel. It seems to me that when you said that your recollection was that the initial amount was repaid, you must have been wrong to say that.
INTERPRETER: That he didn't pay me the whole amount - the full amount?
COURT: The precise words that you used were:
To the best of my recollection, the initial amount was repaid.
What I'm saying to you is that that must…
THE INTERPRETER: But there's still the interest, which means that the amount wasn't paid fully.
…
COURT: But, Mrs El-Debel, I thought you said earlier this afternoon, when you were asked how much was repaid, you didn't know exactly.
INTERPRETER: Under stress, under a lot of stress, yes, I can't take any more.
101 Mrs El-Debel's evidence was inconsistent with Bassam's evidence, which was to the effect that the loan was repaid in kind.
102 It is also inconsistent with an agreement dated 1 October 2019 (that is, made after the public examinations) which purports to record a loan of $78,723.81 from Mrs El-Debel to Fallow. That document suggests that the loan had not been repaid by the date of the agreement because it contains a repayment date of 17 August 2026 and it provides for repayment in full at the end of the term. Clause 4 provides that "[s]hould the Borrower wish to pay the said Advance prior to the end of the term, they are at liberty to do so provided that the said interest is also payable at the time".
103 In her affidavit evidence Mrs El-Debel stated that, after the bankrupt's bankruptcy was extended, she "requested that Bassam as the director of Fallow Investments acknowledge the loan advanced to the company in 2011". However, in cross-examination, when asked if she was familiar with a company called Fallow Investment Proprietary Limited, Mrs El-Debel answered "no". Having regard to the evidence of Mrs El-Debel's general dependence upon her family and the claim that the loan had been repaid, I do not accept that Mrs El-Debel was truthful in her evidence that she requested an acknowledgement of a loan to Fallow.
104 Having regard to the various deficiencies identified above, I do not accept Mrs El-Debel's evidence unless it is corroborated by reliable evidence.