Doctor Beveridge's assessment of Mrs Harris at the Tribunal hearing on 24 November 2005
257Doctor Beveridge was supplied with a transcript of the morning's proceedings in the Tribunal, during which Tribunal members interviewed Mrs Harris in private. Unfortunately the transcript provided to Dr Beveridge contained errors. I was told that shortly before the hearing in this court the Tribunal had found and made available the tapes of the hearing of 24 November 2005. An audio copy of the tapes was admitted. The recording provides a measure of support to the views of both Dr Beveridge and Professor Watson. Mrs Harris presents as an angry, but reasonably articulate, and in some respects canny, individual. She exhibits anger from time to time by swearing, but then apologises. She exhibits fixed ideas on various matters to which she returns and shows some perseveration. Her memory is in some respects good, but in other respects not. She tires and becomes more angry as the day progresses. Although Mrs Harris' testamentary wishes were not of direct relevance to the issues the Tribunal had to decide (relevantly whether Mrs Harris was capable of managing her affairs), Mrs Harris was questioned about her will. She dealt with those questions adroitly and not as a person easily led.
258Doctor Beveridge said that he concluded both from his observation of Mrs Harris on the day, and his review of the transcript of interview, that Mrs Harris had no concept of why she was at the Tribunal. That is not correct. Mrs Harris put in concrete terms why she was at the Tribunal, namely to get back control of her money.
259The first matter of note arose after about four minutes of hearing, after the presiding member put on the record who were the parties to the two applications. She said:
"In relation to the review of your guardianship order Mrs Harris, you're clearly a party to that review as are the three guardians, Mrs Hart, Mrs Nickolls and Mr Mertell".
260Mrs Harris then asked if she could interrupt and said in an aggrieved tone "What have they got to do with me?". After the presiding member said that she would come back to that question, Mrs Harris said, again in an angry tone, "I want to know what the hell I am doing here and what have they got to do with me? Nothing."
261Doctor Beveridge says that this indicates that Mrs Harris had already lost the concept of why she was at the proceedings, and clearly indicates that she had no concept of being the applicant for the proceedings. He said it was clear evidence of "Poisoning of her mind against her relatives", who were volunteering to be her guardians to protect her and assist her to stay at home in care.
262It seems to me that what Mrs Harris was doing at this stage was seeking to get across the message that her relatives had nothing to do with her. She also considered that no one had the right to take away control of her affairs. I do not conclude from the comment "I want to know what the hell I am doing here" that Mrs Harris was unaware that she was an applicant for orders to revoke the guardianship and financial management orders. It was merely an expression of anger and disdain. This emerged shortly afterwards, when the presiding member was seeking to finish procedural matters, and Mrs Harris again interrupted, saying:
"I think what they are trying to do to me is the most disgusting, disgraceful thing possible. I have nothing to do with them at all - nothing to do with them. They're not my flesh and blood - they're not really related to me. They're some sort of a niece of a niece or something who wants my money and that's why they've got me here. It'll all be explained to me, will it?
...
I mean to say it never should be an issue. It never should have happened."
263Shortly after the presiding member said she would finish procedural matters, Mrs Harris again interrupted saying:
"There never should have been any - why I am here is, it's ridiculous. To be told here - is just like - they worked hard to try and get me money from me."
264Doctor Beveridge says that this shows that Mrs Harris demonstrated a poor concept of her blood relations and had a paranoid ideation about the motives of her relatives. He says that it demonstrates further that she does not know why she is at the Tribunal and that it was part of a family conspiracy in effect. In my view, that seeks to draw a stronger conclusion than is warranted. Mrs Harris was speaking sarcastically when she said "They're some sort of a niece of a niece", conveying that her relatives were distant from her and not her flesh and blood. For the reasons below, I do not accept that her anger towards her relatives shows paranoia about their motives.
265The transcript provided to Dr Beveridge recorded the presiding member as asking if everyone had a copy of all of the appropriate documentation and of Mrs Harris saying "I didn't read it. The arms are sore I can't read it actually." Dr Beveridge observes that Mrs Harris' noting that she did not read the documents was important in that the documents "and concepts" were complex and she was not capable of either reading them due to vision or comprehending their content. Unfortunately, the transcript was wrong. Indeed, the transcript agreed between the solicitors (Exhibit 11) is incorrect at this point. Mrs Harris did not say "I didn't read it". Someone said "Do we have copies?". Mrs Harris said "I didn't bring my glasses so I can't read it actually." It cannot be concluded that she was incapable of comprehending the content of the documentation.
266Mrs Harris said:
"All I want is my own bank account back to me. My own money, not to be left like I was - have been at odd times - without any food when I am a multimillionaire and worked hard to be what I am. And my God, I am going to - I probably shouldn't be speaking up but I'm going to make sure the whole bloody world knows what's being done to me. Sorry, I'm sorry."
267Doctor Beveridge's comment was that Mrs Harris indicated that she had been left without food and appeared to have forgotten that she had sacked the carers that the guardians had tried to arrange. He said that it indicates that she did not have the ability to organise food into the house - a simple task in the scheme of life events.
268No conclusion could be drawn that Mrs Harris had forgotten that she had sacked the carers from her statement that at odd times she had been without food (the transcript provided to Dr Beveridge had not recorded the words "at odd times"). It would not be easy to organise food into the house when Mrs Harris had been left without sufficient cash such that she had to borrow from her neighbours. However, as Dr Beveridge commented, Mrs Harris did use inappropriate language for the situation. On the other hand, she immediately recognised that and apologised.
269Mrs Harris asked how long she would be at the Tribunal. The presiding member said she was not sure, but certainly until after lunch. She said "I'll sit it out and wait 'til you return my money to me, my own bank account I want returned to me." Doctor Beveridge says that this was further evidence of her inability to comprehend the nature of the proceedings. I do not see why that is so. Getting control of her finances was the point of the application to revoke the financial management order. It is true that management of finances involves more than having control of a bank account. But having access to a bank account was Mrs Harris' principal concern.
270Mrs Harris' interview in private with members of the Tribunal commenced by a Tribunal member saying that it was not an easy thing to come in and talk about "these things". Mrs Harris responded in a somewhat feisty manner "It never should be talked about. They wanted me money." A Tribunal member asked how it started off. Mrs Harris commenced answering by saying that it started at the beginning of the year, but was interrupted by a member asking who it was she meant when she said "they wanted my money". She named Mrs Hart, Mrs Nickolls, the Swindells and Mr Mertell. She added "They're not related to me really. They are a sort of a niece or a nephew - well they're not my flesh and blood." She said "But they felt that they could like get my money from me but they're not entitled to it because legally - legally they're not entitled to it. So then they had a go by saying I'd gone in the top piece." The expression "Gone in the top piece" or "Not gone in the top piece" was one often used by Mrs Harris.
271Doctor Beveridge commented that this part of the transcript indicated that Mrs Harris announced that the persons she named were somehow not related to her, and she had a misperception and poor understanding of the processes that had been explained to her in detail regarding the appointment of a financial manager. However, Mrs Harris made it perfectly clear, as she made it clear later as well, that her nieces and nephews were not related to her in the sense that they were not her flesh and blood. She could not reasonably be understood as saying that being nephews and nieces, they were not her relatives in any sense. In saying "they're not related to me really" (my emphasis) and then the words that followed, Mrs Harris was conveying that they were not her own flesh and blood, that is, they were not her children.
272Mrs Harris' statement that she felt that the family wanted to take her money does not indicate a poor perception of the Tribunal's processes. It is one thing to have a process that provides for the appointment of a financial manager to act in the interests of the protected person. It does not necessarily follow that all persons who invoke the Tribunal's procedures will be motivated purely by concern for the protected person without any self-interest. Mrs Harris believed that the Tribunal had been misused and that the orders ought never to have been made.
273Nonetheless, it may well be that Mrs Harris did have a poor understanding of the processes concerning the making and revocation of guardianship and financial management orders. That would be consistent with the diagnoses of both Dr Beveridge and Professor Watson.
274A more pertinent point is that Mrs Harris included Mrs Nickolls and Mr Mertell amongst those who wanted her money.
275Doctor Beveridge said that statements made by Mrs Harris that her nieces or nephews wanted to put her in a nursing home demonstrated a lack of insight into her cognitive decline. I do not agree. Although she denied it, it is clear from her actions that Mrs Hart did want to put Mrs Harris in a nursing home. That is what all the guardians initially did until Mrs Harris caused so much disturbance that she had to be moved. She was able to live by herself after her discharge from Lulworth House for two years before she suffered a stroke.
276Mrs Harris said that Coralie Hart would be about 72 or 73 and that she lived up at Coffs Harbour. She said she had never had anything to do with them and never known them. A Tribunal member asked whether Mrs Harris had not favoured Coralie in a will. She said she had never left any money to Coralie Hart. She identified Coralie Hart as a child of one of her sisters, but could not say which of Lorna, Melva or Flo was Mrs Hart's mother.
277This does show a loss of memory. Mrs Hart was Lorna's child. She had made provision for Mrs Hart in an earlier will. Mrs Hart had been a member of the household in which she lived for the first few years of Mrs Hart's life. Mrs Harris' denial to the Tribunal that she had made a will in favour of Mrs Hart is to be contrasted with the information she gave to Professor Watson on 12 March 2005, that the beneficiary of her "old will" that was no longer valid was Mrs Hart. This indicates that Mrs Harris had a better memory, or was able to think more clearly, when seen by Professor Watson and Ms Roberts in March than at the Tribunal hearing in November.
278Doctor Beveridge referred to a statement by Mrs Harris where she repeated that "They didn't come from me, and my husband never sired them or anything" and that "They were nieces of sisters ... but your sister as compared to your husband or something like that cannot claim on your money". Doctor Beveridge said that this was clear evidence of Mrs Harris' not being able to conceptualise and assign a weight of claim upon her testamentary bounty. However, that statement must be read in context. Mrs Harris was reverting to a statement she had made earlier that her lawyers had told her that "They cannot overrule a legal will". In other words, she was not referring to those who might have a claim on her testamentary bounty, but the fact that her nephews and nieces could not make a claim on her estate after her death.
279A few moments later, Mrs Harris said that if she died "they" could not make a claim because they were not her children, or something like that. Doctor Beveridge said that this indicated that Mrs Harris believed that one could not make a claim on her testamentary bounty unless you were a child and the more distant relationships beyond children were not recognisable. He said this indicated a failure to appreciate who might reasonably have a claim upon her testamentary bounty. Again, that misses the point. Mrs Harris was referring to the fact that her relatives could not make a claim on her estate under the Family Provision Act (although she did not refer to that Act). She was recalling accurately the legal advice she had received from Mr Mitchell.
280Although Dr Beveridge did not comment on it, early in the interview members of the Tribunal attempted to have Mrs Harris tell them who were the beneficiaries of her will. At that time, they did not know that Mrs Harris had made a new will, although they must have suspected that she might have done so. A Tribunal member said "I think you've made a will. Is that right?" Mrs Harris said "Yes". The following then occurred:
"Member: ... Are you able to tell us the beneficiaries in the will?
Mrs Harris: Should I? Because I don't really tell everybody.
Member: Well ...
Mrs Harris: I know you're not everybody. [The transcript, including exhibit 11, is in error at this point.]
Member: ... This is a legal hearing and of course this is confidential material, but yeah, tell us.
Mrs Harris: Well I suppose you didn't - did they show you my will? ...
Member: We've seen a copy of it.
Mrs Harris: You have seen?
Member: Yes
Mrs Harris: Well then you know what's in it.
Member: I was just wondering if you - I know it was some time ago.
Mrs Harris: How long ago?
Member: I think it was a few years ago. I was wondering if you could bring us up to date with - with your ...
Mrs Harris: Would you be able to tell me what's in that will?
Member: There's a lot of material in here that I haven't quite - I'll dig it out but ... will you be able to tell us what your feelings were at the time ... and who you might leave ...?
Mrs Harris: Well I would like to know, but I'm talking about my latest will.
Member: Alright. When did you make that?
Mrs Harris: I thought a latest will would be a will that takes over.
Member: You're right. But when was it - when was that done?
Mrs Harris: Very recently. I can't tell you.
Member: Was it like, are we talking days ago, months ago?
Mrs Harris: No. It would be perhaps a few months.
Member: A few months ago you think?
Mrs Harris: We're not talking about years or anything like that. No - no - no.
Member: Something more like months ago ... We haven't got that one.
Member: ... can you tell us who you left your money to in that recent will.
Mrs Harris: Do I have to, because I don't tell everybody.
Member: No, I know. It's a very personal question isn't it?
Mrs Harris: Yeah, no, I don't think I should.
Member: It would help us understand about how - how you feel.
Mrs Harris: I do know that going back, would it be towards last Christmas or something?
Member: Yeah.
Mrs Harris: I had - I had to go to hospital. ..."
281Mrs Harris then changed the topic.
282This passage shows that Mrs Harris was adroit at being able not to disclose what she did not wish to disclose. First, she turned the question back on the questioner by asking if the Tribunal had seen her will, in which case it would know what was in it. She then accurately described the time at which she had made her last will (the will of 4 April 2005), then resisted the inquiry as to whom she had left her money in the recent will, and then when it was put that knowledge of the most recent will would help the Tribunal to understand her feelings, she changed the topic. It is not possible to say whether she changed the topic deliberately or because she had lost the thread, but it effectively put an end to that line of questioning.
283The Tribunal discussed Mrs Harris' assets. Doctor Beveridge accepted that Mrs Harris had a reasonable concept of her wealth.
284Mrs Harris said that she had been in touch with the Woollahra council who had her down as the owner of her property and that:
"Though these people, and nieces or something of mine, you know, ransacked my house last Christmas, although those have been stolen, they won't be able to do anything with them, with the deeds, and we will give it, make copies for you, you know, if you want to sell or something, we will make a copy because we've got Betty Harris down, you know, as being the owners and that, and they can't change themselves to owners. I hope they're right and that's the way it goes."
285When asked who was currently looking after her finances, Mrs Harris became upset. She said:
"You're asking me something which nearly makes me burst into tears".
And after taking a moment to recover herself said:
"These creeps; they stole all my deeds and everything out of my home and then they went to the post office and that, I'm going back to last Christmas ... January, when they went to the post office and they said I must not have any mail delivered; that they had to take it from me from there; the post office you know, or whoever they know there and won't give me my own things."
Later Mrs Harris repeated that her deeds had been stolen.
286Doctor Beveridge commented that Mrs Harris demonstrated that she did not comprehend the role of the financial manager or his appointment, and appeared to believe that there was a conspiracy to steal her title deeds, her mail and her money.
287There was a reasonable basis for Mrs Harris' statements. Mrs Harris' house had been ransacked (in the sense of having been searched thoroughly or vigorously). Her mail had been redirected. The ransacking of her house had nothing to do with the role of a financial manager. A financial manager had not been appointed when the documents were removed. It is not possible, and would be inappropriate, to decide whether Mrs Hart and her daughter committed theft, but there was a reasonable basis for asserting that they had.
288Mrs Harris was asked how she would manage her affairs if management of her affairs was given back to her. She said that she had looked after her own affairs very well. She did not say that she would get the help of an accountant or a lawyer. Understandably the Tribunal took the view that she would not be capable of managing her affairs as she did not have an appreciation of having incurred substantial tax liabilities or of not having lodged tax returns.
289Mrs Harris spoke unflatteringly about Mr Swindells. She told the Tribunal that she had not been able to pay her gardener. She told the Tribunal that "they" had one of the doctors sign that she wasn't at the best, but the other top doctors said that that was not true. She said she thought that that doctor (i.e. Dr Beveridge) should have his licence taken away from him and then, in an apparent attempt to explain her mental capacity, referred to her extensive travel and to having had brilliant passes at school. At this part of the interview Mrs Harris was rambling to a degree.
290Mrs Harris was then asked whether she remembered that there was a "legal order" giving Mr Swindells the capacity to run her finances. Her initial response was to say that she did not give him a legal order. After she said that Mr Swindells should be in prison, a Tribunal member explained that a Government department had made the order. When asked again whether she was aware that Mr Swindells had the legal authority, she said "He shouldn't have legal authority" as she, as the owner, should be the only person that could do it. She was asked whether she was aware that he did actually have the authority, and she said that she had seen his name on something of hers. When asked again whether she knew that he had the legal authority, Mrs Harris asked in reply "Where did he get the authority, that's what I want to know". She was told that it was established by "this Government authority". Mrs Harris was speaking loudly and apologised for shouting. She was told she could shout as much as she wanted and that it was understandable that she was upset. Mrs Harris then said "But he has nothing to do with my affairs. I paid for those properties; I bought them."
291As noted at [273] above, this is consistent with Mrs Harris' not appreciating that the Guardianship Tribunal was empowered to appoint a financial manager to take control of her affairs.
292A member said that, during the last hearing, there was a suggestion that she had some substantial debts. Mrs Harris said that was ridiculous. She denied having owed any taxation debts. She said "I never owed taxes. I always paid them". Her apparently genuine belief that she had always paid her tax, when in fact she owed about $174,000, and Girton Investments owed about $128,000, from 1998 to 2004, does indicate cognitive impairment. Whether it indicates lack of her testamentary capacity is a more difficult question. This was important evidence in relation to the Tribunal's decision as to whether she was capable of managing her affairs.
293Mrs Harris did not know of the reason for her admission to hospital. She had a small scar on her abdomen and said that she was in hospital only for a non-malignant tiny cyst.
294Mrs Harris interrupted herself in describing her stay at St. Vincent's Hospital to say "They're the biggest dirtiest thieves that God ever put breath into and ... want my money." A Tribunal member attempted to say that Mr Swindells was only managing her money for her, which provoked a further outburst. She asserted that the Tribunal had no right to make an appointment because she was not "gone in the top piece". She was told that Mr Swindells had paid back taxes and that Girton Investments had been deregistered because it had failed to pay tax. (Girton Investments had been deregistered, but not because of failure to pay tax.) Mrs Harris said that Mr Swindells had no right to pay her taxes or to touch her money and said that she had always paid everything she owed. She denied that she needed help in managing her affairs. She was asked about her accounts in England and France. The transcript suggests that she said that her bank account in London had only £60 or something like that in it. In fact, it was in credit to the tune of over £36,000, according to the application lodged by Mrs Hart and Mr Swindells to the Guardianship Tribunal on 3 February 2005, following their perusal of Mrs Harris' financial documents. Both parties accepted that this indicated that, at the time of the Tribunal hearing, Mrs Harris did not appreciate the value of that particular account. That is a reasonable assumption from the transcript. Dr Beveridge said that this comment indicated that Mrs Harris had no concept of the amount of money in her UK account, and that although in the scheme of things he accepted that she knew her wealth overall, it was notable that she had an impaired and variable knowledge on different occasions. Mrs Harris did not clearly say what amount she thought was in the bank account, except that it was "not a lot of money". Although it is not entirely clear, I think on balance that Mrs Harris was referring to the sum of £60 as being the amount in the account. By comparison, on 12 March 2005, in her discussion with Professor Watson and Ms Roberts, Mrs Harris had spontaneously said that she had about $70,000 in the bank account in London. This is a further indication that she had a better memory or was able to think more clearly when she was seen by Professor Watson and Ms Roberts in March than at this stage of the Tribunal hearing in November.
295Mrs Harris was asked about her assets in France. She said:
"MRS HARRIS: Well France, yes, but they've stolen, I never ever got --
MEMBER: But do you know how much is in the bank?
MRS HARRIS: No I don't really because they've stolen everything of mine.
MR ALCHI
[MEMBER]: Who is that?
MEMBER: Now let me tell you - yes, who - who stole your money?
MRS HARRIS: Well, I wish I knew. I mean, but I don't think, they haven't stolen the money evidently because the money is supposed to be there.
MEMBER: Yeah.
MRS HARRIS: Like with my place in France, that I have there, now I told you it was left to me and then I - but I never ever got, you know, an official thing from the bank saying the money was in the bank.
MEMBER: No - yeah.
MRS HARRIS: But I think the money is in the bank.
MEMBER: Yeah.
MRS HARRIS: Because --
MEMBER: Can I just tell you something?
MRS HARRIS: I know somebody who was going over there, a neighbour of mine, you know, some weeks ago and I said to him no Robert don't go, I was going to ask him to go to the bank but I said, no, until everything's organised I don't want anyone going to the bank and asking for the bank to tell them how much I have in the account because the bank, if they had any sense, wouldn't tell anyone anyway.
MR ALCHIN: That's right.
MRS HARRIS: So, as I say, and I never got official thing whether they'd sold it now.
..."
296I do not think that this passage takes matters any further. This does not show that Mrs Harris was paranoid that members of her family had stolen her moneys in France. Although she initially asserted that someone had stolen something, it is not clear whether she was referring to a member of her family or to someone in France. But in any event, she appreciated that her money had not been stolen, but was supposed to be there. It is of some significance that she appreciated that a banker would not disclose details of her account to her neighbour.
297The discussion then reverted to the role of a financial manager and of the Tribunal in appointing a person as a financial manager of a person who lacked capacity. It is clear from this and from other passages that Mrs Harris appreciated that the issue before the Tribunal was whether she was capable of managing her affairs. As the hearing progressed, she became more and more furious about what she saw as the temerity of others to discuss her capacity.
298After Mrs Harris was getting tired and had expressed a wish to go home, saying she was not feeling the best, the Tribunal asked her further questions about her background. She was unable to recall her husband's job. Again, this is in contrast to her meeting with Professor Watson and Ms Roberts in March (see [169]).
299Mrs Harris repeated the episode of her having been on a cruise in the Mediterranean when there was a fire on board the ship and that they were towed into Malta where she was able to find her brother's monument. When asked about having visits from an agency to help her around the house, she said that she did her own housework and kept a beautiful home and arranged her own food deliveries and cooking. The other discussions were of no particular relevance to the question of testamentary capacity.
300Mrs Harris remained at the Tribunal for the further hearing. At one point where the presiding member was summarising the discussion concerning taxation debts, Mrs Harris intervened. She said the Government had offered her a pension that she had declined to take up. This was in apparent rebuttal of the charge that she had owed debts to the Government for unpaid taxes.
301In summary, the recording of Mrs Harris before the Tribunal on 24 November 2005 does not clearly establish one way or the other her testamentary capacity as at March and April 2005. The occasion would have been more stressful than the occasions when she was visited in her home by Professor Watson, Ms Roberts and Mr Gray, and by Ms Johnson and Mr Jones. In three specific respects, she failed to remember things at the Tribunal hearing on 24 November 2005 that she had remembered in her discussions with Professor Watson and Ms Roberts (viz. that she had formerly made a will in favour of Mrs Hart, that she had substantial funds in her London bank account and the details of her late husband's business). She did exhibit perseveration. She did not appreciate the role of the Guardianship Tribunal. She was focused on having Mr Swindells removed as her financial manager. She did not appreciate that she had owed taxes or that Girton Investments had been deregistered. She did not appreciate the need for assistance in managing her affairs. She was not able to say whether Mrs Hart was a child of her sister Lorna, Melva or Flo (this was consistent with her interviews with Professor Watson and Ms Roberts on 12 March 2005 and with Ms Johnson and Mr Jones on 23 March 2005). She was disinhibited during the hearing. This is consistent with either the diagnosis of moderately severe dementia or with her personality as described by Mrs Nickolls and others. She adroitly avoided the questioning about her most recent will, but it is not clear whether she changed the topic so as to avoid further questioning or whether she simply lost her train of thought. I have rejected many of Dr Beveridge's observations about her capacity based on the transcript. Nonetheless, as Dr Beveridge opined, her conversation was at times disjointed and perseverative and irrelevant to questions asked. She also lacked insight into her inability to manage her affairs, in particular, by not recognising her failure to meet her taxation obligations or the need for an accountant or lawyer to assist her in that regard. However, I do not accept Dr Beveridge's opinion that the antagonism that she clearly displayed at the Tribunal, in particular to Mr Swindells, showed a delusional paranoid belief concerning his motives or the motives of others.