The hearing before the second Tribunal
112 On 3 September 2008, the second Tribunal sent a letter to the appellants inviting them to appear before it to give oral evidence and present arguments, stating that it was unable to make a favourable decision on the material already before it. As was observed in SZBEL, this invitation should have alerted the appellants that the second Tribunal was not persuaded by the materials already before it to decide the review in their favour. However, this letter did not identify any particular issue as being important to, or determinative in the review and, in my view, the appellants would have been quite justified in presuming the s 36 issue remained the central and determinative issue.
113 At the outset of the hearing, the second Tribunal member stated: "I'm not bound by any of the findings made by the delegate or by the Tribunal ...", and that: "I'm going to ask you some more questions about some of the areas of your case that aren't quite clear to me". In my view, there was nothing in either of these statements to alert the appellants to the fact that the s 36 issue was not the central and determinative issue in the review, but rather that issue had changed to specific aspects of their accounts that may lead to their central claims not being accepted by the Tribunal.
114 Soon after the hearing began, the appellant husband left the room due to the sensitive nature of the questions that were to be asked in relation to the appellant wife's time working as a prostitute in Italy. It is not clear from the transcript, but it seems he returned sometime later after the questioning moved onto different topics. While this course was understandable and was apparently acquiesced in by the appellants, I do not consider it completely removed the obligation of the second Tribunal to, at some appropriate stage, inform the appellant husband that his claims, derivative as they were, may be rejected on credibility grounds. I will return to this issue further below.
115 Once the appellant husband left the hearing, the second Tribunal proceeded to ask the appellant wife about a number of specific aspects of her account. Consistent with the second Tribunal's reasons for decision, some of these aspects were directly related to the details of her claim to have been subjected to sex slavery in Italy and the others involved unrelated matters. The Tribunal member began by asking her about the circumstances in which she left Albania on the first occasion with a man named "Gjin". In particular, the Tribunal member asked what Gjin's surname was. The appellant wife answered that she could not remember because it was a difficult name. The Tribunal responded that: "If he was from your area in Albania, I wouldn't have thought you would have difficulty pronouncing his surname or remembering it". Ms McGrath, the appellants' representative, intervened at this point and explained that she thought that the appellant wife was trying to draw the distinction between Gjin's actual real name and what the appellant wife had been told his name was. The Tribunal responded: "I don't get that impression". The appellant wife then proceeded to give a detailed explanation about why she could not remember his real name as follows:
INTERPRETER: I can't remember anything what he told me. Later on I understood that he had a different religion and they used to call him with a different surname. We have different names. Maybe because it looks like different, it's different here, and maybe you wonder, but in Albania is different. I was very young at the time, and I just met him. He said his name, and - like, for example, in Albania, if somebody would have said to my father that, "I want your daughter for my son," I would have gotten married to him without knowing him at all. Maybe it surprises you, but that's the way - how it is in Albania. It's not that you have to know the person for very long. Like, I met him there for a while, and that was it. Now I understand things, but not at the time.
116 To this explanation the Tribunal member responded: "Okay. So what did he tell you about his family?" The Tribunal member then asked the appellant wife a series of questions about whether she had left Albania before 2003 and whether she had a passport or identity document when she went to Italy. From the transcript, it appears that the Tribunal member was satisfied with the answers that the appellant wife gave.
117 Then the Tribunal asked the appellant wife to name the street in Torino where she was forced to live and work as a prostitute. She also asked her the name of the person who was in charge of the house where she lived. The appellant wife responded that she did not know, or could not be expected to remember, the name of the street, and she gave a long explanation in an attempt to explain why that was so. Her explanation was to the effect that the streets were not well marked in that particular area of Italy and that the house was in the middle of the street, not at the beginning or end of the street where a street sign would typically be placed. As to the person in charge of the house, her initial reaction to that question was: "… what kind of question is that". However, she went on to say that she could only speak a few words to one of the other girls present and her captors did not tell her who they were. A little later in her reply, she said they used to change all the time. At the end of these questions and explanations, the following exchange occurred:
TRIBUNAL MEMBER: Well, I may come back to that argument later, but anyway - - -
INTERPRETER: But, please, ask me - I don't want to discuss it in front of my husband, so please ask me now.
TRIBUNAL MEMBER: I don't necessarily agree that the things that I'm finding strange are because Albania and Italy are different places from here. I mean, of course they are different places, but these concerns that I have relate to the plausibility of this experience you claim to have. There have been incidents of a sexual flavour here in Australia, and I would expect those applicants to be able to come here and tell me what street it was in Fitzroy or Brunswick that they were kept in.
118 In response to this statement, the appellant wife offered to provide more detail and the Tribunal member asked a few more questions, after which she stated "Okay. Let's move along …". At this point, Ms McGrath intervened and asked the Tribunal member whether there were issues of concern relating to her ability to name the street or the person running the house, to which the Tribunal member responded: "There will be other issues of concern."
119 The appellant wife then repeated her explanation as to why she did not know who was in charge of the house. To this, the Tribunal member responded: "I would have thought that you would have had a sense of who was running the operation and recall, you know, even their nicknames that they went by …" The appellant wife then embarked upon another explanation. As the Tribunal observed in its decision, this explanation appeared to be inconsistent with the earlier explanation she gave for not knowing the name of the street where she was living and working in Torino. She said:
I haven't got a clue who was the person - who was in charge in there and who was second in charge there. It's not they let us to stay with them (indistinct) we used to be separated from them. They didn't let us talk on the phone or use anything at all, so I don't know. And they used to change all the time. There were a few houses in there, not only one. It wasn't one house. There were a few houses in there, but then in the middle of nowhere - like, in the middle of the bush or - not the bush, like in the middle in the field.
It's not like the houses were inhabited by people. They were - all the houses (indistinct) and the houses are not like veneer; they are houses which are made with brick - double brick. And they have - in the windows they have the bars, which were as thick as my hands. The houses are not like in here. They had few doors (indistinct) one door in the front, one door in the back. They had only one door, the door which you enter - and the windows with the big bars.
120 To this, the Tribunal member eventually responded: "Okay. I may come back to this area later, but I want to move on". Despite this indication, the Tribunal member did not return to this aspect later in the hearing.
121 The Tribunal member then questioned the appellant wife about her return to Albania with the appellant husband and the two years she spent living there with his parents. The Tribunal member was interested to know how she managed to do this without anyone discovering she was there. The appellant wife explained that the appellant husband's parents' house was not near any other houses and because she was in bad shape from her time in Italy, she spent most of her time indoors. The Tribunal member then asked about the details of her marriage to her husband. The appellant wife answered that they were first married in a registry office and then later in a church. His parents attended and "… It wasn't a big ceremony or something like that". The Tribunal member responded: "All the same, I would have thought that having registered your marriage in the local civil registry and later on having a church wedding in your own village officiated by a priest - it's surprising that nobody found out that you were there."
122 The appellant wife repeated her explanation, after which the Tribunal member moved on to another issue.
123 The Tribunal member also questioned the appellant wife about their return to Italy in 2005 and the incident when she encountered some men from the prostitution ring she was involved in when she was last in Italy. In the course of this questioning, the Tribunal member asked why they did not go to the police, and commented:
All the same, the police are there to combat violent crime, and you say that you had been subject to threats of violence. I also understand that the police (indistinct) when they question their effectiveness, do have the authority and the policy to try to combat sexual slavery in Italy. So it's a bit difficult to say that the police - that you have no state protection from the Italian authorities when you never gave them the opportunity to do anything (indistinct)
124 After a lengthy explanation from the appellant wife, the Tribunal member said: "Okay. So you decided to leave Italy and you went to the United States."
125 The Tribunal member then asked the appellant wife why the appellants went to the United States before arriving in Australia. The appellant wife explained that they went to the United States on the assumption that her auntie would help them. After this did not eventuate, the appellants left the United States of America and returned to Italy. The Tribunal member asked why they did not apply for protection visas while they were in the United States of America and she responded that she did not know how to and because she did not speak the language it was very difficult for her.
126 After this questioning, the Tribunal member became concerned that the appellant husband had not heard a significant portion of the evidence. Significantly, the Tribunal stated that "… the problem is that adverse credibility issues arose out of [the questioning in relation to the appellant wife's time as a prostitute], and he needs to know about those" and further that "I need to give them the weight that … needs to be given and, if I'm giving them any weight at all, then he's entitled to know". On this aspect, it is to be noted that the questioning about the appellants' return to Albania, their subsequent return to Italy and their trip to the United States of America (summarised at [121]-[125] above) were all matters that were unrelated to the sensitive aspects of the appellant wife's account of prostitution in Italy and were matters upon which the appellant husband would presumably have been able to give evidence and present arguments.
127 At this point, Ms McGrath intervened and claimed that the Tribunal should not have had any concerns about the veracity of the appellants' evidence, and suggested that the Tribunal contact the appellant wife's doctor who, she said, accepts the truthfulness of the appellants' claims. The Tribunal said: "But he can't answer the questions" and further: "I accept that he has that opinion". The hearing was then adjourned for a short break.
128 When the hearing resumed, there was a discussion between the Tribunal member and Ms McGrath about a telephone conversation she had had with the Italian Embassy during the break. The Tribunal member then asked the appellant wife about her application for a visa to come to Australia and a parcel that arrived at the Australian Consulate in Rome purportedly from her father, but which she had claimed was in fact posted by her father-in-law. The appellant wife explained that her father-in-law put the appellant wife's father's name on the parcel because the Consulate wanted the documents to come from her father. The Tribunal member stated: "I don't find that persuasive. I don't understand why the documents would have to come from your father and not your father-in-law". Soon after this questioning, the hearing concluded. However, immediately before that happened, the following exchange occurred:
TRIBUNAL MEMBER: Do you want to say anything else at the moment?
INTERPRETER: Maybe (indistinct) something later on, because I'm completely, completely blocked now, unless we have a short break and I can think about something. I remember something to tell now. (indistinct) for example (indistinct) told me before that I don't - how come that you live for two years in (indistinct)
TRIBUNAL MEMBER: Mm'hm.
INTERPRETER: People stay at home because the blood feuds over there and they are there and nobody knows that they are (indistinct) the surname (indistinct) I can't remember what's the surname (indistinct) Maybe (indistinct) They were not like relatives or blood related or anything at all.
TRIBUNAL MEMBER: Yes, okay. Anything else?
INTERPRETER: This is my second tribunal, and if you want to clarify something with me, please do so.
TRIBUNAL MEMBER: Well, I've asked you all of the questions that I want to.
…
[The appellant wife then made a long statement about life in Australia, the risks in Italy and the lack of protection offered by the government in Italy and the material she had provided to the Tribunal.]
…
TRIBUNAL MEMBER: Okay. Anything else?
INTERPRETER: (indistinct) please, so I think a bit more clearly.
TRIBUNAL MEMBER: Well, I am going to be writing you a letter, which will give you another opportunity to submit any more information (indistinct)
INTERPRETER: But if I am here, why (indistinct)
TRIBUNAL MEMBER: I have to write the letter. Have you (indistinct) the information on your visitor visa card? If I can hear from your adviser, I'll ask her to make her submissions and then I'll give you another opportunity to say anything else that you want to.