Mr Ingram - further evidence
42 As to the nature of the arrangement that Mr Ingram negotiated with Gumala, his evidence at the hearing was that CoreStaff would become Mr Selsmark's employer. Mr Ingram's evidence was as follows:
Now, as I understand it, you understood as at that date, as at 25 October, that Corestaff would because Mr Selsmark's employer?---Yes. I was of the understanding, that is correct, yes. Because it was a - from memory, it was a short term contract for a couple of months and they were hoping to win another contract near Yandi or somewhere, from memory, and if that happened, then the contract would be extended. But as far as I'm led to believe, it would have been through Corestaff, correct.
And so you, therefore, understood that Corestaff would ultimately be responsible for Mr Selsmark's health and safety, given it was going to be their - his employer?---Yes. Correct.
43 As part of his investigation, Mr Howard asked Mr Ingram to provide 'a copy of the contract of employment that would have been offered to Mr Selsmark should his application with you to undertake work for Gumala been successful'. In response, Mr Ingram provided 'the offer of employment that could have been provided to Peter Selsmark if he had passed the pre-employment medical, drug screen and police clearance'. Those contract terms expressly provide that the person is employed by CoreStaff as a casual on-hire employee to perform work for CoreStaff's clients on assignment; that the client is Gumala; and that the role is as a grader operator. The person would be paid by CoreStaff an 'assignment flat rate' under the CoreStaff Construction Industry Enterprise Agreement 2015 (and that rate is specified).
44 During the Interview, Mr Ingram was asked about the Response Email and his reasons for sending it. The relevant part of the transcript of the Interview reads as follows:
MR HOWARD: And you did send it?
MR INGRAM: It has got my name on it, so yes.
MR HOWARD: If I could just jump in again, then. So on the email - I will give your copy back so you know what I'm talking about - so on 25 October, which is the one there, it says, 'Hi Terry,' - this is from Nikki Maltese, the HR advisor - 'I have some feedback on the grader ops, Peter. We had his details already. He applied directly with us' - which is what you have told us in your […] - 'He has all the tickets we are looking for, however he age [sic] is a concern - 70 years old. The other guy is a no.' So once you have received that email, did you ever phone up Niki and have a conversation about what she had put in there?
MR INGRAM: No.
MR HOWARD: So that was the only response you got from Gumala in relation to Peter?
MR INGRAM: Correct.
MR HOWARD: So on reading that email, what was your understanding of what she was telling you?
MR INGRAM: How would you say it? See, the way I looked at that - and this has gone over in my head a million times, don't get me wrong, since I have got this email from David the other day, this letter - my concern personally, and this is the way I have read this to be, is yes it is his age. I would be concerned myself - and I am probably not allowed to say this but I am speaking from the heart and it is truthful - I would be concerned about employing somebody working 12 hours a day in the Pilbara, 45 degree heat every day. It knocks me around and I am less than 60. So having somebody that is 70, it has got to knock them around a lot more than me. That would be my concern. It has got nothing to do with age.
…
… I made it a point that going forward back into recruitment I would be upfront and I would tell somebody - if somebody applied for a job, and successful or not successful I would at least do them the courtesy of getting back to them and telling them otherwise, okay? … I know what it was like when I was out of work for 12 or 18 months. I would go and apply for a job, you would never hear anything. I would have an interview, I would never hear anything back, and it used to hurt, you know. So anyway, that is what I thought, I will make it a point.
So that is exactly what I done. … I done the right thing. I got back to Peter. I made a judgement myself based on the email I got from Gumala, and again I know I shouldn't have said it, but once something is said verbally or in writing you can't take it back.
And there was no intent to be disrespectful or discriminative or whatever you want to call it in any way, shape or form to Peter. It was just giving the guy some feedback about, 'Sorry, mate, you have missed out on the role and' - to this day I have got no idea because I know you're not allowed, you can't - I have said 'because of your age.' …
Again, no intent whatsoever to be disrespectful to Peter in any way, shape or form. I was giving the guy some feedback and for some stupid reason I put down the three-letter word.
…
MR HOWARD: Sorry, just getting back to this, though. If you hadn't had that sentence from Gumala, would you have put him forward?
MR INGRAM: I couldn't see any reason why not. At the end of the day, like I said, I don't care about someone's age.
45 Mr Ingram also gave evidence during the hearing relating to his response to Mr Selsmark as follows:
And so, as I understand your evidence, that you told Peter he didn't get the job [because] of his age because you wanted - - -?---Because of his age.
- - - to be honest with him?---Yes. Yes. That's correct. Yes. And, look, I know that's the mistake. As I've said, during the meeting with the ABCC that day, I meant no disrespect to Peter or, you know, to be in a discriminative fashion, way or anything. My understanding was or - how would you say it. My opinion was, when I seen it, he was 70. The first thing I thought of was - how would you say it - I think I might have mentioned it anyway, 'Think of it as your dad or your granddad going 40 to work in the middle of the Pilbara where it's sort of a 45 to 50-degree day and - I mean, I was - I was living and working up there in Newman it gets very, very hot and it's very unpleasant and, I mean, it used to knock me around. I mean, I'm only - you know, I'm 57. So I was 55, 56 then. So, you know, someone of - who would have been 70, in my opinion, I was, you know, I shouldn't have made the call, but I made the call based on I was looking after his health more than anything. Nothing to do with his age.
…
And so, as I understand it, yes, when you received the email from Ms Maltise, it made you pause and think about all the things you've just described to her Honour about your concern for him, if he did do that job, given his age?---Look, you know, you know, like I said, I didn't know that he had actually applied directly with the client anyway and when I found out that he was 70 it was, like, wow, you know, it's going to be difficult for someone, you know, in those - in those harsh conditions …
…
And that's why you then wrote to him and told him that because you were concerned for him?---Yes, I was. And, look - and, again, it was no disrespect to Peter. I mean, I had no problems trying to find him another position elsewhere, you know.
46 In re-examination Mr Ingram said as follows:
In response to Ms Raper's question, you said you didn't know that Mr Selsmark had applied directly anyway?---That's correct.
What significance does the fact that you didn't know he had applied directly have for you?---If I had have known that he had already applied directly or had his resume then I - there would be no point in me sending through - his resume through again because he - they already have it.
And what - so what does 'no point' mean to you?---Well, if they've already - if they already have his resume, then why do they need a second copy for me?
47 Mr Ingram was also questioned by CoreStaff's counsel during the hearing about the meaning of his email to Ms Maltese of 25 October 2019 (in which he said, 'Wow didn't know that however I would have found out eventually'). Mr Ingram was asked what it was to which he was referring. He answered:
Well, first, I didn't know that he had actually sent an application directly through to the client. I wasn't aware of that. He didn't mention that when I had the conversation with Peter. And, secondly, I didn't know that he was 70 years old.
48 During the Interview Mr Ingram was also asked about the process of obtaining feedback from a client once resumes are provided. He referred to the process of moving forward to interviews or phone calls once he provides a number of resumes and receives feedback. He said:
Oh yeah, like I said, I am just doing my job in providing resumes to the client. The client will come back to me and say, 'We want to go to the next level,' or 'They haven't got the experience,' or 'They haven't got this,' or 'They haven't got that,' and that is it. That is gospel.
49 Mr Ingram was then asked about the actual process with Mr Selsmark:
MR PRETSEL: But in your thinking in relation to Peter's suitability for the job, what was that? After you have looked at his resume and had regard …
MR INGRAM: Well, again, you know, you can look at the piece of paper, the resume if you want to call it that, and on paper he looked like he would be able to do the job, okay? You also get resumes that come forward, they could be the Prime Minister of Australia but they are useless. It is a fudged-up resume, if you want to call it that. So at the end of the day it is the client's decision after they have spoken to the prospective employee about, 'This is what is going to happen,' and they're going to ask them questions about the machinery and whatever they're going to do. That is their side of it. My side is to provide a resume, give them all the information I possibly can, and then it is up to the client to make a decision thereafter.
MR PRETSEL: And if they had made a decision in relation to Peter, what would that have looked like? Would they have conducted a further interview? Can you step through what that would look like? You have already got somebody who is working for you at the moment …