"Q: When you got there, what sort of condition did you find her? --- I couldn't believe it. She was really - she was sitting up and she was happy and she was cheerful, and we had coffee together and accidentally spilled it all over the bed sheets and everything, and she was just laughing. I mean, it was just like two little schoolgirls unfortunately, or fortunately. Q: How long did you stay with her for? --- Quite some time. Q: She was able to talk? --- Yes, she was. Q: After a while, did you talk about some serious matters? --- I showed her the personal list of chattels, and I can't remember whether she read it or I read it to her, but we were sitting quite close together, and I asked her if that's what she wanted and if that's what she wanted would she please sign it. Q: And is that what happened? --- Yes, she did. I also showed her the one that I typed out with Alice Byers, and said to her that that was my understanding of what she wanted, and she confirmed it. Q: Was there then some discussion about other matters? --- Yes. I was a little bit embarrassed because I was afraid somebody was going to overhear us - and maybe they did, I don't know - but she then wanted to discuss about leaving money to Libby. Q: Did she say how much? --- We discussed again, we went through the same things that we had gone through once before when she wanted to know if I knew how much Libby's house was and I said to her no, I didn't know what the house was worth - she lived in Mount Dandenong - and she decided that 400,000 would probably be adequate to assist her with the renovations and with Tim's ongoing education. Q: That was a figure that she told you; is that right? --- It's a figure she told me. MR SOUTHALL: Could I ask my learned friend not to lead, Your Honour. These are pretty critical matters. MR PHILLIPS: Did she then say anything else to you? --- Yes, she then said that she wanted me to have the same, and I - - Q: What did you say to that? --- Well, I just told her what I've always told her, that no, I can't do that, I can't accept it, I couldn't take instructions, I couldn't write the Will, I couldn't do anything, and she got really angry with me, which is the first time in all the time I've known her that she got really angry, and - and said that she was sick of it and to get her someone that would do it, because she leave her money the way she wanted to. Q: What did you understand her to mean when she said to get someone to do it? --- I assume she meant somebody from Trust Company or a solicitor or someone that could do it other than myself, because I said I couldn't. Q: You said that Miss Tennent became angry? --- Yes, she - - - Q: Perhaps you could describe how she became angry? --- She threw her arms and she said, "I'm tired of this, I want to leave you something, I should be entitled to leave my money the way I want to." She was just - she raised her voice. She's never raised her voice to me in the time I knew her, and I'd never heard her raise her voice to anyone else, she's such a lady." MR PHILLIPS: There's just a couple of matters I want to go back over from late yesterday afternoon. Do you remember I showed you Exhibit PD4 which was an e-mail that had been sent to you by Mr Dowel on 31 August 2000 giving you information as to Miss Tennent's assets? --- Yes. Q: That said that the asset position was something like $2.1m? --- I recall, yes. Q: Once you'd received that information, what did you do with it? --- I advised Grizelda of the information as she requested, but not at the hospital. Q: What did you tell Grizelda? --- I told Grizelda that I had received a response from Peter Dowel, and - I can't recall the figure that you quoted - but that her estate was around $2m. Q: During the course of that discussion, was anything said to you about the existing charitable trusts in the Will? --- Yes. Grizelda - we had gone through the fact that, of what she wanted, and then she said to me that she really wanted to leave her - the money to charity but to specific trusts, which I believe is something that she did quite some time ago before - when the original Wills were done, Nancy Ewart's Will was to set up a foundation, but that foundation originally had in it means, different charitable trusts that they wished to - the income to be provided for, so what that meant was that Trust Company would hold the capital in perpetuity but the income would go to those specific named trusts, charities within that trust. I think before in 1995 when I went out to see Grizelda, she wasn't all that - - - Q: I'm not concerned about 1995, I'm concerned about August 2000? --- Okay, my - sorry. Q: After you had that discussion with her, was anything else said that night about this charitable trust in Miss Ewart's Will? --- Yes, well, I just basically said to her, "Look, according to Nancy's Will, the foundation leaves the money in trust to be used for charities, but it was left up to Trust Company to decide which charities would receive that income", and that it's always been the practice that her money would fall into that foundation or form part of that foundation, and it would be quite awkward to administer if she wanted specific trusts, and Nancy only had - Nancy's was whatever, whomever Trust Company was to give the money to. Q: Did Miss Tennent make any decision that evening about what she wanted to do with the charities? --- She thought it was very sensible that it remain the way it is." [emphasis added]