"You used the word 'kettle' in an attempt to tap into the
category established by the Kettle Chip Company?---We used the
word 'kettle' because that clearly was the best descriptor, the
most recognised descriptor, in regard to chips with the
characteristics that we're talking about.
So it described the chips in the category established by the
Kettle Chip Company?---Established in this country by the
Kettle Chip Company, yes and their other two associates.
And you chose the cauldron to tap into the type of chips or
category of chips established by the Kettle Chip Company?---
Yes. The indication from research was that the cauldron was an
important - let us say a communicating symbol that communicated
that they were chips of this style.
You chose those two things with your eyes wide open as to the
risk that the Kettle Chip Company might bring legal proceedings
against you?---Yes, and that's precisely why we took very
careful advice before going into the market place.
. . .
I want to suggest in general terms that some of your market
research indicated that the Kettle Chip had achieved the status
of a brand or a product name?---Yes, and some of the later
research indicated that it was a descriptor and not a brand.
Now, whether the change between those two views was brought
about by the fact that there were then two other brands on the
market which appeared to be independent offers, using the same
word, I suspect that's what occurred.
And you think it is important, in what you just said, that the
research that came up, using the term generally, that it was a
brand, was before that which came up with it being called a
descriptor?---Sorry, I think it's important - I am just
reflecting on what I understand research showed at different
periods.
If it is the case that the descriptor research was before brand
research - I mean, the research that resulted in those two
findings - that would be contrary to what you just said?---It
would depend on - I'm not sure how precise - how precisely one
can read into those research results in that sense, certainly,
our very clear belief and research is, as I said, is one of the
guides to decision-making, as is talking to the trade and many
other inputs in terms of information, but it was (our) very
clear belief at the time of launch that Kettle was a descriptor
and that it was relevant in regard to this style of product and
that therefore it was important to us to use it and that after
very careful checking we had the right to use it and that it
was important that we should use it in a way that we could
build a brand franchise of our own under the Smith's umbrella
to produce a distinctive product that, in the long term, would
give us a consumer franchise that was ours and that is what we
have always set out to do with this product and every other
product that we launch.
If it were perceived as a brand rather than a descriptor then
there would be a risk that people would - - -
MR ELLICOTT: If what was, do you mind just - - -
MR CATTERNS: If the word Kettle or the Kettle chip - if the
word Kettle, in the context of the Kettle chip were perceived
as a brand rather than a descriptor, then there would be a risk
that people might be confused as between your product and
theirs?---Frankly, I think the chance of people being confused
between our product and theirs - and if one puts the two
products side by side - the chance of confusion is minimal. If
one also puts to that the circumstances of the level of
awareness of the products and the category at the time we
launched, if one puts with that the amount of advertising we
have put behind our brand, if one puts with that the work we
have done in terms of product display - particularly large
displays in supermarkets - I think we have done a sound job in
establishing that that product is a brand - is a product that
is distinctive is of our manufacture and no one else's.
If you could just go back to the day before you launched and so
subtract from that answer the notion of your promotion since
launch, work in stores, advertising and so on, if it be the
case that some consumers treat the word kettle in this context
as a brand name, and then they saw something called Country
Kettle, there is a possibility, is there not, that they would
be confused?---Mr Catterns, your question said if it doesn't
address how many consumers it is quite clear - - -
HIS HONOUR: No, no, that is not the question you were asked?---
Sorry?
Could you put the question again?
Look, you are asked a particular question and counsel is
entitled to an answer to his question, not a little essay about
what you thought about things.
MR CATTERNS: If it be the case - and just accept that as an
assumption - that a significant number of consumers did
perceive 'kettle' in this context as a brand name, then the day
before your launch there would be a risk that some of those
consumers would be confused when they saw your product?---For
those consumers who held that view, I guess the answer would be
yes; whether they were a significant number I think is probably
very debatable."