MR WILD QC: Now, in the course of investigating the material that you were given, were you able to obtain DNA from the jeans of Greg Bebensee?---Yes, I tested several areas of the jeans which were somewhat bloodstained, but we were also looking for what is colloquially called 'handy' DNA, which is skin cell or skin DNA from other people who might've been touching him or - - -
All right. Clearly enough, the blood - there was a great deal of blood on the jeans?---No a - - -
A degree of blood on the jeans?---Not a great deal of blood on the jeans. There was some blood on the jeans.
All right. And were you able to identify whose blood that was?---Yes. I certainly tested an area around the right pocket, right front pocket, which was smeared blood and that produced a mixed DNA profile. The major - - -
All right?---Component of which was the same as Greg Bebensee's.
Well, now, you were then - at the time at which you already were given the samples in respect of McLaughlin and Stokes - able to try to match some of these profiles?---Well, it was not - not the actual matching as such, but to see whether the people could be excluded from the mixed profile that I had.
All right. You say you found some DNA in material on the jeans which was from a person other than Greg Bebensee?---At least one other person, yes.
And you're able to say that because some of the profiling characteristics were different to those of Greg Bebensee?---That's correct.
And could not have come from him?---That's correct.
Did you have a great deal of DNA material to work from?---I was in a situation where I had a lot of DNA from the major component - that is from the victim - and a small component of the mixture, so it was a very unbalanced mixture, if you like.
And made it difficult to get a clear profile?---It makes it very difficult to optimise the conditions for analysis.
Now, from the amount of material that you had, were you able to exclude Mr McLaughlin?---Yes, Mr McLaughlin was excluded in several of the systems, the DNA systems, that we looked at.
All right. Now, in respect of Mr Stokes, were you able to come to the same conclusion?---No, I could not exclude him from the mix profile, but there could be a lot of other people there to, (sic) or a lot of other people wouldn't be excluded as well.
Yes, all right. Well, that's a crucial issue, is it not?---Yes.
From the amount of material that you had and from the conclusions that you were able to reach, is it significant - of any particular significance, rather, that you couldn't exclude Mr Stokes?---Well, all it really means is that the profile possessed by Stokes is - could not be excluded from the minor components that I found on that - in that mix profile.
Yes, but you then went on to do some statistical analysis of those findings. It would not be, I suggest to you, a significant exclusion?---No, because there could be other people with - who similarly couldn't be excluded from that sort of mixture.
Thank you. Now, all attempts to obtain DNA, apart from that of Greg Bebensee, were unsuccessful in respect of the other items?---Yes, yes. It was just the right front pocket of the jeans and just below the edge of the jeans that I - that I actually got results.
Yes, thank you. I think, as you've said, could've come from one or more persons other than Greg Bebensee?---Yes. The reason I say that is because, as I mentioned, the difficulty in optimising the conditions for the sample, because there was a lot of Greg Bebensee there, and a small amount of whatever else was there. There are not artefacts, but there are results that occur with very high levels of one component that, in calling it, or me making a call as to what the result is, I'm not sure whether it is, as we call it, a 'stutter band' or a true peak and that's why I say it was difficult to optimise the conditions for that sample.
Thank you. In layman's terms - laywomen's terms - the amount of DNA from Greg Bebensee effectively swamped the other results?---Yes. Yes, and made it almost - well, makes it impossible to call whether some of the peaks observed were true peaks or part of the analysis of Bebensee himself.....
Mr Dalrymple: Now, you were informed - well, firstly, when you first got the jeans, you presumably - or when you did the testing for the stains in the pockets, you were - you identified at a fairly early stage what you thought the combined profile components in the stain were. Is that correct?---I made a best guesstimate, I suppose, as to which peaks were showing up consistently and higher than one would normally expect from stutter, because you must understand we were in the middle of investigative stages of a serious murder and the detectives wanted to know whether I had anyone on the data base who may fit the profile. So that, as I said, I was required to make a best guesstimate as to what I thought the profile might be. I - I always said to them, from the beginning, that it might not have anything to do with the murder at all. It could've been someone at the hotel that night on the jeans. It could've been anybody....
Is this correct, that there was a slight difference in the total range of alleles you were getting for the two stains?---Yes, there was, and that's why I said there was significantly less DNA in the soiled area, so I was getting a lot of stochastic effects and I didn't pick up the entire profile, I don't think, from that soiled area. The results were a lot more difficult to reproduce from run to run, which is typical of the very low DNA sample.
And looking at the two stains together, would you agree that it appears inescapable that the conclusion that there would have to be two other contributors, apart from Mr Bebensee, to the combined mix? Would you agree with that?---No, I don't agree with that. I - I've always said that there might be because of the difficulty in being able to tell between a stutter peak and a true peak.
In a scenario where - I suppose in particularly (sic) we're talking about the stain at the top of the jeans, the edge of the jeans, that would presumably have to be explained, assuming it happened on the night, with someone putting a hand or a part of the body which was going to emit bodily substances onto that part of the pocket. Would you agree with that?---He's got to have been touched by somebody, but that could happen in a hotel.
Can you give us a scenario in a hotel how you could see that happening, short of seeing a person putting a hand in the pocket?---I can, but I don't know whether I can say it. I mean, he could've been touched up in a pub...