[23] That interview continued, and she described both her father and Michael being in that bedroom at the same time, with Michael "doing it" to JM on the top of the bunk. Michael had climbed up the ladder, broken it, and she saw he "went up there with my sister grabbing her from the neck. I think he was choking her." She said her father was naked, and that he looked "disgusting" with a hairy belly, a big belly button, and that his [indistinct] (apparently his penis) was big, and that it had hair on it. She also said that she had not seen this, but that JM had told her; and further that she knew that it was his "private" that was rubbing up and down, because "I saw it and [JM] saw it, too, but I didn't remember". She said that Michael had jumped onto JM, and copied what "Dad did", and that she had seen this. It happened when "Dad" was going to get a drink. What she saw was Michael putting his "private" into (JM's) mouth, and that "He just - both of them did that to me and [JM]". That appears to be the only description in evidence of the event alleged in count 5.