Senior Member: Ms Walsh, does the council have a position in relation to keeping four cars on the property?
Ms Walsh: Yes, that it would consider that that would be ancillary to the use of the land as a dwelling and that typically it is for hobbies, sports, rally cars.
Senior Member: What would you say to the proposition that it's not really relevant to these provisions as to how you characterise the use of land, whether it be shed, whether it be a car park or whether it be an innominate purpose, because the critical thing is however you describe the use, it's one that requires a permit.
Ms Walsh: Mm, mm.
Senior Member: And there is no permit.
Ms Walsh: Yes. I'm just thinking it through. I think - - I might just seek some instructions for the moment. Sorry, Mr Chairman.
Senior Member: That's all right.
Ms Walsh: I am just trying to think it through. I think if what you're saying is that if an enforcement order - maybe if you could repeat what you said, before I - -
Senior Member: Well, I'm not sure that the question of land-use characterisation is really central to the case.
Ms Walsh: Mm, mm.
Senior Member: What is central to the case is whether or not a permit is required and - -
Ms Walsh: Yes - -
Senior Member: The declaration having been made that the current usage goes beyond what would constitute a normal ancillary use - -
Ms Walsh: Yes - -
Senior Member: Or use that's ancillary to the dominant residential use, but what follows is that to legitimise the situation you would require a permit. Now, that may depend on how you characterise things. If it's a [shed], then you've got the problem of, you know, the cars not being kept in the dwelling, I think the words are. If it's a car park, you've got the problem as to whether it's an ancillary to a Section 1 or a Section 2 use. That's not a problem, I suppose. But, the third alternative is that it's an innominate purpose, namely, the keeping of vehicles on the land which goes beyond what would be normally ancillary to domestic usage. All three of them require a permit, and the fact is that a permit hasn't been obtained. So, that's just running through my mind.
Ms Walsh: What I am concerned about is that because the declaration was so specific, 8 to 10 vehicles - -
Senior Member: Yes - -
Ms Walsh: That, you know - - and there is evidence that there are sometimes five and there are sometimes six vehicles, I think the characterisation issue in how you just put it, is correct that it's not really relevant, but what is relevant is that the Tribunal makes a determination of, well, how many cars is ancillary.
Senior Member: I see, yes.
Ms Walsh: So, I think that just - - I think that we wouldn't be any further in resolving this matter if it was just a - -
Senior Member: If it were to say it would be helpful, yes.
Ms Walsh: Mm, mm.
Senior Member: I understand. All right. Well, thank you for that. Now, Mr Hoe, I've got one question for you: the Council has asked, in addition for an Enforcement Order it's asked you to pay the costs of the proceedings. What do you say about that?
Mr Hoe: I dispute it. ...[11]