Cross-examination of Mr Hodge
27 Mr Martin QC cross-examined Mr Hodge at the oral hearing in relation to the second applicant creditor and various other corporate entities with which the bankrupts had been involved in the operation of the Mackay Spare Parts business.
28 Mr Martin QC cross-examined Mr Hodge in relation to the winding up of Mackay Spare Parts (Trading) Pty Ltd:
Okay. Now, for some time prior to 2004, you and your wife operated a family business called Mackay Spare Parts from premises in Sydney Street, Mackay, didn't you?---That's correct.
And in 2004, the entity that operated that business was a company called Mackay Spare Parts (Trading) Pty Ltd; that's right, isn't it?---That's correct.
And on 2 April 2004, that company was wound up by the Supreme Court at Townsville upon the application of the Deputy Commissioner of Taxation, wasn't it?---That's correct.
Because it didn't pay its tax?---The thing is, if you read my first statement, our accountant, Darryl Camilleri, had been to court arguing about a large credit on tax which we allege was owed to us, and it was his instructions that after he went to the court where he was - I believe that he was unable to get a verdict, his instruction was to fold the company up. Would you like to go into - - -
No, no, no - - -?--- - - - what the tax credits were, Mr Martin?
No, no, Mr Hodge, just answer my questions, and as her Honour said, you will have an opportunity to comment at the end. It's true, isn't it, that the company, Mackay Spare Parts (Trading) Pty Ltd, was wound up in 2004 upon the application of the Deputy Commissioner of Taxation?---That's correct.
And - but the business of Mackay Spare Parts continued after that, didn't it?---Yes. Yes, Mr Martin.
Yes. And the name of the new company that ran that business was Mackay Spare Parts Pty Ltd?---That is correct.
And you and your wife at various times were directors of that new company, Mackay Spare Parts Pty Ltd?---Yes.
Right. Now, you say that you paid all of the creditors of the business when the company went from Mackay Spare Parts (Trading) to Mackay Spare Parts Pty Ltd?---That is correct.
Right. But you didn't pay anything to the Deputy Commissioner of Taxation, did you?---That is correct.
Why not?---Because we believed our credit was greater than what we owed.
But you didn't fight that in court, did you?---Darryl Camilleri did.
And who's Darryl Camilleri?---Our accountant.
So he went to court on your behalf before the Supreme Court of Townsville and disputed the winding-up order, did he? Did he fight it?---No, I believe, your Honour - I believe, Mr Martin, that he went to court in Brisbane. He specifically went to court and he represented us, and he came back with the decision that it was a waste of time.
So the amount that the Deputy Commissioner of Taxation was claiming was not paid, was it?---That was correct.
All right. So you paid everyone else, but you didn't pay the Deputy Commissioner of Taxation?---As I said, Mr Martin, our debt - our credit was higher than what our debt was.
But you didn't dispute that, though, did you, in court successfully?---I don't - I do not recall.
Right?---I know that Darryl Camilleri went to court in the Supreme Court of Brisbane, and had a dispute about the Taxation Department that was money that was that.
All right. So - but in any event, you lost that battle, didn't you, with respect to the tax that was owed?---I don't think we - I don't think we fought it.
Didn't fight it, but you didn't pay any money either, did you, to the ATO?---As I just said, Mr Martin, we don't believe we owe them any money.
I see. So based upon that belief, you thought the better thing to do was to simply move the business to a new company. Is that right?---That was my instructions from Darryl Camilleri.
You mean, that was the advice he gave you?---That is the advice he gave me.
All right. Because, in fact, the company at that time - that is Mackay Spare Parts (Trading) - it wasn't viable without your support, was it?---That is correct.
29 Mr Martin QC then cross-examined Mr Hodge in relation to the transfer of the Mackay Spare Parts business to MSP Engines in 2013:
All right. So rather than fight the tax department, you thought it was better to move the business again and just not pay - - -?---That's correct.
- - - the tax department?---That was our advice.
All right. Do - - -?---And we had a different accountant then too, sir.
Tell me, did you think that was an honest thing to do, to move the business over and not pay the tax?---I believe it's honesty that they should have instigated the credits that we - we had two lots of credit that we applied for back in 2004.
Well, obviously, they didn't accept those credits, did they, Mr Hodge?---Well - - -
They didn't accept the credits?--- - - - it appeared they weren't - that - that's correct.
Right. And so they issued the company with a statutory demand. Did you apply to set aside the statutory demand?---I beg your pardon?
Did you apply to set aside the demand that the ATO sent to the company in 2013?---Mr Martin, I think you will understand - - -
No, just answer my question. Did you apply to set aside the statutory demand that would have been served on the company in 2013?---That was left to my accountant and solicitors. I wouldn't know.
And did you go to court in 2013 and oppose the second order for winding-up, or the order for winding-up of Mackay Spare Parts Pty Ltd. Did you do that?---I believe there was some court action but I don't know what it was.
And then when you transferred the business of Mackay Spare Parts in 2013 to MSP Engines Pty Ltd, you used the services of a firm of accountants in Melbourne called DNV Accountants, didn't you?---That's correct.
Why did you use accountants in Melbourne to assist you with that transfer?---I believe they approached us when we had a notice from the tax department.
So did you go down to Melbourne and see them?---Yes.
All right. And did they advise you to incorporate a new company and transfer the business over to it?---Yes.
All right. Now, can you recall when you effected that transfer in December 2013 who was the director or directors of MSP Engines Pty Ltd?---Mr Martin, there was a company set up before that, MSP Services first, and then the MSP Engines was set up.
All right?---And that MSP Engines, I believe, was me.
But the original director of that company wasn't you. It was a lady by the name of Nicola Griffin, wasn't it?---That is correct.
And Ms Griffin was an administrative clerk who worked in the office of the accountants of DNV accountants. That's right, isn't it?---I do not recall what she was, but she was the director that was put in there by that accountant.
And she lived in Melbourne, didn't she?---Yes.
And she had nothing whatsoever to do with the running of the business of Mackay Spare Parts, did she?---Not really.
What do you mean "not really"?---Well, she was a director. There was discussions with her.
Did she ever come to Mackay?---No.
It was you and your wife that continued to run the business of Mackay Spare Parts - - -?---That is correct.
- - - didn't you?---That is correct.
All right. So, in fact, it was somewhat of a sham or a fraud, wasn't it, to suggest - just let me finish - to suggest that Ms Griffin was the sole director of a company that operated a spare parts business in Mackay, wasn't it?---Repeat that, sir.
It was - it was a sham or a fraud. It was an attempt by you to distance yourself from this business when you transferred it in December 2013. That was the plan, wasn't it?---That was done on the - on the - that was done by the accountants in Melbourne.
So did you think - I appreciate you're not a lawyer, but did you think it was appropriate to operate a business in Mackay by a company where its sole director was an administrative clerk in an accounting firm in Melbourne? Did you think that was the appropriate way to operate this business?---I believe there's a lot of businesses have their directors in different towns.
Yes, but you know full well that Ms Griffin had nothing whatsoever to do with the running of your business. You've already told the court that?---It is too far back and I do not remember.
See, in fact, it gets worse, Mr Hodge, because what happened then is that the liquidators, each time you moved the business, they had to join new companies to these proceedings in the Supreme Court, and they joined MSP Engines Pty Ltd to this proceeding, and your solicitors, Colwell Wright, Mr James Wright, he applied to strike out the claim against MSP Engines Pty Ltd on the basis that at the time of the transfer, you weren't a director of MSP Engines; Nicola Griffin was. Do you - do you recall them making that application?---No, I do not.
30 Mr Martin QC cross-examined Mr Hodge in relation to the costs orders the subject of the debtin the bankruptcy notice served on Mr Hodge:
Now, Mr Hodge, were you aware that that application that your solicitor brought to strike out the claim against MSP Engines was, in fact, dismissed with an order for indemnity costs. Were you aware of that?---I wouldn't have a clue.
Well, in fact, the bankruptcy notice that was served on you and your wife related to costs orders in the Supreme Court proceedings, didn't it?---So is this the one against the company?
It was - this was against the company and you?---Because we paid the one against the company.
Yes. Well, I will tell you what I will do - - -
…
MR MARTIN: I'm going to give you a copy of your bankruptcy notice, and I've got a working copy here for your Honour. Now, Mr Hodge, that was the bankruptcy notice that was served on you and your wife, wasn't it, that gave rise to your bankruptcy?---Yes.
Now, if you go to the very back of that document - and what I've done is I've actually numbered the pages. So these are pages 10 and 11 of that bundle?---I've got 10.
Is there not a page 11 at the back?---No. It must be the next one. It's not marked.
It's not marked, is it?---That's okay.
Now, page 10 is an order of Flanagan J of the Supreme Court of Queensland on 12 August 2016?---Yes.
All right. In the Supreme Court proceedings. Now, if you look at paragraph 3, it says there that:
The application of 7 July 2016 is dismissed.
See that?---Yes.
That was your application to strike out the claim against MSP Engines, the document I just showed you earlier?---Yes.
All right. And then the next order, paragraph 4, is that:
The respondents -
that's you and your wife -
and MSP Engines pay the costs of that application on the indemnity basis.
Do you see that?---Yes.
All right. Do you understand the difference between costs on the ordinary basis and costs on the indemnity basis?---No, your Honour. No.
Did your solicitor explain to you that costs are awarded by the court on an indemnity basis when the court is satisfied that the litigants or their solicitors have conducted themselves unreasonably?---That could be so.
And so your solicitor didn't explain to you why an indemnity costs order was made against you?---I don't believe so.
See, I suggest to you that an indemnity costs order was made against you and this company, MSP Engines, because there was no reasonable basis for filing an application to strike out the claim against it?---We shall see.
No, no, that decision has been made, Mr Hodge?---Because - - -
That decision was made by Flanagan J. He looked at the nature of the application, and in particular, the fact that Ms Griffin was a director for some time and that seemed to be the basis of your contention there was no claim against MSP Engines, and he thought that your argument in that regard was so unreasonable so as to justify an order for indemnity costs. Did you appreciate that?---Mr Martin, as I said, I don't believe the court was ever told the truth.
MR MARTIN: And then - so there was an order for indemnity costs made on that occasion. And then if you then turn to page 5 in the bundle of that documents, that's an order of Thomas J of the Supreme Court on 4 May 2017. Now, you will see there that Thomas J ordered that you and your wife and a new company, the fifth respondent, Mackay Spare Parts & Services Pty Ltd pay costs on the indemnity basis. Do you see that?---Yes.
So another indemnity costs order. Now, just while we're at that, you transferred the business on a third occasion at the end of 2016 to this company, the fifth respondent, Mackay Spare Parts & Services Pty Ltd, didn't you?---That is correct, because you got an order to take control of that company and I wasn't working for you.
31 Mr Martin QC cross-examined Mr Hodge in relation to the allegations of fraud by Mr Hodge:
I'm sorry - I'm sorry, Mr Hodge, why did you cause the business of Mackay Spare Parts to be transferred on a third occasion to another company of which you or your wife were a director?---Because our solicitor lost the case to stop you getting control of our company, and as the MSP Services company was registered before the MSP Engines company, we moved it across to the MSP Engines company because we weren't going to have no intention of working for Offermans.
All right. So as I understand it, there has always been a claim from the outset that the business of Mackay Spare Parts is held on trust for the original company that you moved the business away from, Mackay Spare Parts, and you were doing everything within your power to ensure that Mr Offermans or that company didn't get their hands on your business. Is that right?---Because you have been fraudulently making claims.
Now, you said that in your opening to his Honour. What fraudulent claim do you say Mr Offermans - Mr Offermans has made in these Supreme Court proceedings? Fraudulent. I mean, that's a serious allegation?---Well - - -
What's the fraud that he has alleged?---Well, Mr Martin, let's have a look at it. If we have a look at my exhibit DRH-1 where Knights Insolvency was appointed receivers of that company, they have made a claim in there that we had goodwill of 150,000, we had plant and equipment of 109,000, and we had cash at the bank of 23,000. Then lo and behold, somehow or other, Knights got the - took over this file. I would suspect that for Knights to take over the file - sorry, for Offermans to take over the file from - from Knights and Knights allegation there was 300 - approximately $300,000 of assets in there, what type of transaction took place so Offermans could take over that file?
I will just stop you for a moment there. In the Supreme Court proceedings, you filed defences in which various admissions have been made. And one of those admissions is that the original liquidator appointed was Trevor Schmeerer - Trevor John Schmeerer. He retired as a liquidator and Mr Offermans was appointed in his place. Now, you've admitted that in the Supreme Court proceedings?---Mr Martin, if you go back to my - my letter that I put in there, I'm saying that I left all this up to my accountants and my solicitors up until the middle of last year, approximately, where - and I'm under oath now, so, Mr Martin, I'm telling the truth - is that we changed accountants and the accountants said to us if we had a competent person looking after our affairs back in 2004, these allegations would not have gone past 2004. So where you and your statement said that you couldn't find any of our paperwork, the only balance sheet you could find was 1998 balance sheet and nothing else existed because of our sloppy paperwork is ..... lies. So me and my wife went through all the files and it just so happens that back in those days, there used to be a situation where you got paperwork and it used to vanish the ink on it, we photocopied a lot of it and we went through his files and we've proved that you're blatant liars.
Now, what had - - -?---So if you want to go and look at Mr Offermans' statement, let's look at this - - -
No. No. Mister - - -?---This plant and equipment of - - -
Mr Hodges, just stop there for a moment?---$109,000 you got off the '98 balance sheet. Show me on the '98 balance sheet where you've got 109,000. I will show you the '98 balance sheet and it hasn't got that on there. And I will also show you the ledger that was put out by Bennett Partners which proves what the figures were in 2003.
Now - - -?---You're dishonest, Mr Martin. And you have to admit fraud.
Mr Hodge, you've - in answer to my question about the allegation of fraud, you took me to exhibit DRH1 to your affidavit, which is an extract of a report by the then-liquidator of the company Mackay Spare Parts (Trading) in which he sets out, following - this is in the third paragraph:
Our investigations into the company affairs based on information obtained from the company's accountant, the value of the business as at 31 October can be summarised as follows.
Now, when in there is there a fraudulent statement by the liquidator? Where do we see a fraudulent statement?---I'm saying that you - in your statement of claims, in your - are we look at Mr Offermans'? Let's go to Mr Offermans, because he's now the current - current liquidator.
No. No. No. Mr Hodge, I want you to be very careful. I asked you where the allegation of fraud was. And in answer to that, you directed me and the court to exhibit DRH1 to your affidavit, which is an extract from a report prepared by a liquidator, an officer of the court. Now, I'm asking you where on that page, in DRH1, do we see something that is fraudulent?---Fraudulent on good will on $150,000. Fraudulent on the plant of equipment of $109,000. And fraudulent ..... 22,245.
All right. Let's just break those down. So you say by the liquidator asserting that this business had goodwill of $150,000 and it's said to be based on turnover and profitability, are you saying that that is a fraudulent statement in the liquidator's report? A fraudulent statement?---I am saying that the liquidator did not look at the two exhibits that I put in there from Darryl Camilleri and Joe Cliff, the two accountants that were involved in the winding up of that company. And they both state there was no goodwill because the company was supported because of the losses the company had from injections of funds from the directors. And the second accountant, Mr Joe Cliff from AH Noel, states there was no goodwill available because the company was unable to pay rent for three years. So, Mr Martin, you're trying to tell me that a company can't pay rent has got $150,000 worth of goodwill. That is absolute disgraceful lies.
So, Mr Hodge, is there any evidence that the liquidator spoke to either of these accountants or had this information available to them when they prepared this report back in 2004?---Mr Martin, all I can say is, as I said earlier, all this has been left to the people like you and solicitors and accountants. And it was until last year when we decided - we always said things were dishonest. When we went through, we proved that the information that has been presented to the court was absolute untruths. We can prove in black and white situations that what the information that has been sent to the court is utter rubbish.
Well, you understand what's meant by the word "fraudulent". That means a person makes a statement knowing it to be false. You understand that, don't you?---Well, you had all the paperwork.
Do you understand that, Mr Hodge? That when you use the - - -?---No, I don't. I believe that you had the paperwork and you deliberately - - -
Mr Hodge - - -?---Used that to hide the facts.
Mr Hodge, listen to my question. Do you understand that when you say that somebody has been fraudulent, that means that they are making a statement knowing it to be false?---Well, you have done that, Mr Martin.
32 The remaining issues in the cross-examination of Mr Hodge included:
the loan from Perpetual Trustee Company Ltd;
the conduct of the proceeding before Daubney J in BS159 of 2005; and
the transfer of shared in MSP Engines from Mrs Hodge to Melissa Turner (daughter).