The first matter is one which the Member took up with Mr Frugtniet, and on which Mr Frugtniet spoke at some length. That he did so is readily understandable because the Delegate's unfavourable decision was referable to that matter.
40 After exchanges between the Member and Mr Frugtniet on that matter, the Member, addressing the applicant, said there were "three steps" which he (the Member) was required to take "to determine whether you are eligible for the visa that you seek". The Member said he had been discussing the first step with Mr Frugtniet and it appeared that the applicant had in fact applied for a Protection visa, so that he was "eligible to be considered for a Bridging visa". The Member then explained to the applicant:
"Okay, so the next issue I have to think about is whether you will abide by visa conditions if you are allowed [sic - out?]. Now I'll just go through what the conditions are. If condition 8101 were imposed on you, would you be able to support yourself without working?"
The Member questioned the applicant about all six conditions mentioned in the s 359A letter ([16] earlier) and also condition 8507 (payment of the cost of the applicant's detention at the Villawood Detention Centre).
41 The applicant relies on the fact that when discussing the conditions, the Member frequently used, not the present conditional tense of verbs, but the future tense, in a way that would have been appropriate if he was speaking about conditions to be attached to a visa which was in fact to issue.
42 The applicant relies, in particular, on the Member's recapitulation of the discussion of conditions in the following passage:
[MEMBER]: "Okay, all right. Mr NAQF, I would be keen to impose a condition 8512, which is that you are to leave by a date specified. What I would do is I would specify the date - it's a bit hard to do this with much accuracy but in the event that the Protection Visa application was ultimately unsuccessful, including all appeal rights, then to leave within 28 days of that.
[MR FRUGTNIET]: Absolutely.
[MEMBER]: Is that all right?
[MR FRUGTNIET]: Absolutely but Member, is that in any way precluding the lodging of any other application or is it more broadly worded to say---
[MEMBER]: Okay, I'll just go back again. I'll say that, yes, he's got to leave by a date specified. The problem with this is that it's quite hard for me to specify it with a lot of accuracy.
[MR FRUGTNIET]: That's right.
[MEMBER]: But what I meant is that even if he's unsuccessful ---
[MR FRUGTNIET]: Yes, yes.
[MEMBER]: Okay, if unsuccessful with the Protection Visa, then he's going to have to leave.
[MR FRUGTNIET]: Correct, indeed.
[MEMBER]: Which, in fact, even if I didn't put that on, I think he's going to have to do that anyway.
[MR FRUGTNIET]: Without a doubt.
[MEMBER]: Yes and so - all right, so what that means - I'll just go through that again - sorry, some of these things are a little bit hard to explain - this condition 8512, I'm saving, if you are unsuccessful in getting the refugee status, then you have to leave Australia within 28 days but remember, even if you are unsuccessful before the Department, there is an appeal right. So when I mean unsuccessful, I mean unsuccessful as in after having exhausted every appeal. Okay, so it would then be necessary - you would have to leave Australia and then you could - assuming you are still wanting to do this, of course - you could then apply for a Spouse Visa offshore. The way it works, I don't think you have to even return to your country of origin. You can go to New Zealand or somewhere.
[MR FRUGTNIET]: I think, Member, you have raised an anomaly in that going by without so much as looking at the ... or otherwise, I think you are quite right in that it says the circumstances are a spouse or a defacto spouse of an Australian citizen.
[MEMBER]: And not a citizen.
[MR FRUGTNIET]: Yes, so it's the other way. So the defacto of what you brought in is fine, she has applied for citizenship.
[MEMBER]: Yes, it's messy, isn't it. However, it seems to me, that it takes a while for Protection Visa applications to be finalised, particularly when you appeal.
[MR FRUGTNIET]: That's right.
[MEMBER]: So you could imagine then that in a year or two, if you did have to go offshore, it's more likely than not that his wife would be a citizen.
[MR FRUGTNIET]: That's right.
[MEMBER]: And it's more likely than not that he would be able to prove - they probably would have been able to marry by then and they probably would be able to produce heaps of evidence that they are in a spouse relationship.
[MR FRUGTNIET]: Indeed.
[MEMBER]: So even if he had to go offshore, it would be on that basis.
[MR FRUGTNIET]: Indeed.
[MEMBER]: Okay. I'm not quite sure I have any more questions. Was there anything else that you want to say?
[APPLICANT THROUGH INTERPRETER]: No.
[MEMBER]: All right. I stress that it will be important that you do abide by these conditions because I think it would be fair to say that if you didn't, then you would be ... of getting a Bridging Visa on a second attempt would be much reduced.
[APPLICANT]: Yes, I understand.
[MEMBER]: Okay, well, what we will do - were there any other submissions that you want to make at this stage?
[MR FRUGTNIET]: No, Member. I am satisfied."
43 In addition, the applicant relies on the following passage which occurred in the course of the Member's questioning of the applicant's de facto wife:
[MEMBER]: "I see 8101 is not mandatory here so, I don't know, it might be causing more problems than it solves.
[MR FRUGTNIET]: Because there appears to be a variety of interest …
[MEMBER]: All right, well, we'll take off the work prohibition, okay. If you get the visa you will be able to work. Okay, but another condition attached to his visa is that he'll have to report either to the police or the Department of Immigration on a fairly regular basis. Okay, another condition is he has got to keep Immigration informed where he is living. Okay and pay detention costs, which is going to be something like $2,500."
44 I agree that, read in isolation, the use of the future tense may well suggest an assumption that a visa will issue. But it cannot be read in isolation. Importantly, the Member even used what may be thought of as the future "will abide", rather than the obviously conditional "would abide", in the prefatory passage set out in [40] above, in which it is plain beyond argument that the ensuing discussion was to be about conditions to be attached if a visa was to issue.
45 There were other occasions, also, within the following 11 pages of transcript of discussion of conditions between the Member and the applicant and Mr Frugtniet, when the Member made it clear that the conditions discussed were ones to be imposed if a visa issued. For example, in an exchange with Mr Frugtniet, the Member said:
"... if I left him in detention, for example, then Immigration would expedite the assessment of the Protection visa application." (my emphasis)
When the applicant's de facto wife was called, the Member said to her:
"What is going to happen is that if he gets released ... there are certain conditions that will be attached to the visa ...". (my emphasis)
And in the passage set out at [43] above, following an interjection by Mr Frugtniet, the Member said:
"All right, well, we'll take off this work prohibition, okay. If you get the visa you will be able to work." (my emphasis)
46 Counsel for the applicant submitted that the last two statements by the Member should be disregarded because they occurred after both the applicant and Mr Frugtniet had told the Member they had nothing further to say. I reject this submission for two reasons. First, the applicant himself has called in aid the passage set out in [43] which occurred during the questioning of the applicant's de facto wife. Secondly, the applicant and Mr Frugtniet were present while she was being questioned and could have sought an opportunity to say something further following the Member's saying "if he gets released" and "[i]f you get the visa".
47 The way in which the Member expressed himself may have inspired hope, even confidence, in Mr Frugtniet, but I am not satisfied that Mr Frugtniet understood that the Member had represented to those present that he had decided finally that the visa was to issue. As an experienced Migration Agent, Mr Frugtniet knew at the beginning of the hearing:
· that there was an issue, in view of the applicant's previous record, as to whether the Member would be satisfied that the applicant would abide by conditions; and
· that if the Member was not satisfied that the applicant would do so, the visa would not issue.