Was there any evidence that the prisoner had in fact settled down?---Well, I would say that the fact that he was moved from one cell to another, that he was there for 12 hours - there was nothing in any of the logs to say that he's not. At the end of the day, it's an assessment that a prisoner officer makes.
Let's look at the fact, as you say, that he was moved from one cell to another. What is your understanding of what happened and when?---My understanding - I can't recall when - my understanding is that he was put in a multipurpose cell.
Initially?---It was initially when he was brought in from outside.
After exhibit 9, after Officer Pulford's ?---After Mr Pulford, so that was quite appropriate.
Yes?---My understanding is he broke the glass in the door.
Yes?---And my understanding is he was then moved to another cell.
So your understanding is that he was transferred to another cell because he had actually damaged property?---Yes, he had damaged property.
When did he damage property?---After he was placed in that cell.
Do you know what time?---No, I don't, as I recall.
After he was fed and ?---I don't recall. I need to look at that, if it hasn't been written down.
Wouldn't it be relevant to know at what precise time, whether it was after he was fed or before he was fed?---Not necessarily.
It is your evidence that the fact that he was fed showed that he had calmed down?---Yes.
If he had broken the window after he had been fed, it would show that he had got upset again, wouldn't it?---Well, my evidence would be that prisoners in remand centre very quickly can flare up and be very quiet again.
...
You agree with me that if he had broken this window after 1835, that would be evidence that he had played up again?---Yes.
So is there a difficulty agreeing with the proposition that it would be relevant to know when he broke the window?---Not in my mind. I don't really - whether he was fed before the window was broken or he was fed after the window was broken, he had obviously settled down when he broke the window.
How do you know that?---There's nothing to say that he hadn't.
And there was nothing to say that he had?---No, there's nothing to say that he had.
And in a risky high-volatile remand centre it's your evidence that it's all right to just assume that he had settled down?---No, you don't assume anything. I thought in my evidence which I gave previously I said that prison officers need to be aware of what they are doing. They need to go there and I think I did say that the prison officer would assess the prisoner when he got into the cell. He would assess them when he opened the cell, so I thought I said that.
If the cell is broken after he has been fed and defed, it doesn't matter; you wouldn't have to assess his situation afterwards?---You always assess the situation before you open one of those cells.
And there's no evidence that the assessment had taken place in relation to the damaged window, is there?---No, there's no evidence to say it wasn't.
There is no evidence to say that it was?---No, other than when the officers opened the cell. The next morning, as I stated previously - the next morning when the officers went to the cell I would expect them to do that.
To have done what?---To do exactly what I said, assess the situation.
But this prisoner had been transferred from the multipurpose cell to another cell which was not - did not have a broken window. How would the officers the following morning know that he had broken a window in another cell if that's not recorded anywhere?---Wouldn't they see it?
Say again?---Wouldn't the officer see it, the wing officer? I don't know. They could have got a briefing. I'm sure that they could have got a briefing.
Yes?---Yes, could have. (ts 754 - 757)