Mr Xu's evidence, his conduct concerning the contraventions and his previous conduct
53 I accept that Mr Xu did his best to conduct the proceedings in the way the Court's processes required, and that from the time of the mediation onwards, he has acknowledged the need for the first respondent, and himself, to face up to the alleged contraventions and deal appropriately with them.
54 However, in making that finding I also find that Mr Xu has engaged in conduct which is not consistent with full acknowledgment of the contraventions and the need for the respondents to behave differently in the future. I make that finding for the following reasons.
55 Mr Xu has consistently sought to downplay the seriousness of the contraventions. He has done so by referring to the amount of money the first respondent made in the sale of the impugned goods, and what a small sum it was. For example:
As my own knowledge, I tried to, you know, to get rid of these things happen, and I don't want to, you know, purposely to contravene. It's ... the contravene a period of around two years; only sell less than $2000. And that's - how can you say I purposely do this for $2000. Less than, about … dollars something, 400 something.
… I'm just get the local, this stuff from local, and the track through to the clearance centre, shopping clearance centre. It's absolutely different story, totally different, not comparable; you know? I'm running a small business. That's why it's not for purposely sell for the profit; you know?
…
That' s why my wife gets very upset. "You get all these cheap stocks and get trouble". That's why stop me to running the business. That's why just the one, you know, one shop like this, and it didn't sell much. Didn't sell - only sells the quantity less than - more than 1000, less than 2000 dollars, all this stuff.
56 He did not recognise the risks posed by the goods he was selling, nor did he acknowledge the proper purposes of the safety standards and product bans.
57 Mr Xu also sought to cast himself as the victim of a consumer protection system that was too complicated for him to follow and understand, and put this forward as excusing his conduct and meriting a small penalty only. For example:
HER HONOUR: Well, I think it's appropriate, given that line of questioning, Mr Ure, that I just make something clear to Mr Xu, in terms of what I anticipate is going to be your client's submission. Mr Xu, as I understand it - and you can ask any more questions, Mr Ure that you want to - as I understand it, CAV are going to say to the court that you have not taken responsibility yourself for finding out what you need to do to make products safe. Instead, you say to CAV, "You tell me" -?-
[Mr XU:] No, I -
[HER HONOUR:] - and they are going to say to the court that is not their job. It's your job, if you are selling things, to find out what you need to do to make them comply. Now, what do you want to say to me about that? Do you understand that's your responsibility? -
[MR XU:] Because I explain to them, because I don't know how to get this informations, you know, you just tell me whatever, you know, I can do follow your request, I can pass to the China side, if I import it. If not import like the local stuff, I get it, I can't do anything. But if the importer, like I show all the letters responded from the manufacturer in China. They can do anything, you know. They can - like sunglasses, they straightaway send me the labels, category 3, and ask me just to put it on. When I say because you guys tell me you supplied that in Australia before, that's the market, I've got to travel, and because I -.
[HER HONOUR:] So are you telling the court that you think CAV should tell you what to do?
[MR Xu:] - No, I did not think CAV should tell me, but I say to you just to help us, because we don't know much a lot.
58 However, it was apparent that in the past Mr Xu simply did not wish to expend money on seeking advice about his legal obligations and those of any corporation he chose to run his business through. For example, this exchange (which also reveals part of Mr Xu's reasoning about why only a small penalty should be imposed):
HER HONOUR: Thanks, Mr Ure. All right, Mr Xu, it's your turn now to tell me - you've heard what Mr Ure has said. He has put it very clearly about what CAV says I should do. I think we should start with that. So they say I should impose a penalty on your company of $250,000, and they say I should impose a penalty on you personally of $250,000, and they say I should order a public notice setting out what you and your company have done and the penalties and orders that the court has made. Now, the first thing I think you should do is tell me whether you agree with that or you disagree and why.
MR XU: No. I disagree with that, because he said - I just repeatedly for these things just for myself, you know, to help the company to do like this. Every time - it's already on the affidavit before. That's, for example, the hot-water bottle. I did according to - after court at 2010, I did everything requested by the CAV. Then they get the ... I don't know. For some reason get injured, but actually it's not - what's that - the Matthew - he already say that the product is not ours; you know? And after that, 2010, the Magistrates Court, I did everything according to their requesting, and you can see before that they've got the permanent warning on the products and the leaflets -
HER HONOUR: Mr Xu, the hot-water bottle was not safe.
MR XU: Yes.
HER HONOUR: It wasn't thick enough.
MR XU: That's right.
HER HONOUR: It didn't have the right seals.
MRXU: Yes. But -
HER HONOUR: Now, you didn't know that, because you didn't check what needed - what it needed to have; isn't that right?
MR XU: Yes, because for my - you know - I don't know how to get this information, but only according to whatever they say; they say to me "Do this", I do this.
HER HONOUR: You could have paid someone to tell you.
MR XU: Yes; that's what I say - that's what - yes. That's what I think I have to in the future. I have to get something like this.
59 The following extract, during submissions, although rather long, is worthwhile reproducing in full because it demonstrates the attitude of Mr Xu:
MR XU: I didn't want to - any - you know the - what's that - the public warning or whatever, but the thing is, you can't stop them. They are too powerful. Like the last time in year 2010, the judges there, the judge said they got sick of story, try to convince me to criminal, you know, and the judge said because they're government, not argue with them. So you just - you said just recognise the ... without the convictions, that's it, you know. Because they can do anything. I know this. They are powerful.
HER HONOUR: Well, you didn't get a conviction last time, Mr Xu, so that was to your advantage. You didn't get a conviction. You got a good behaviour bond, didn't you?
MR XU: I don't know, because they said - the judge told me - he said, "You -"
HER HONOUR: But the problem is, you've done it again.
MR XU: No, the thing is - that's why I want to explain to them. After that, I did everything according to their requirement. I did not go to personally check - I didn't know how to check properly, you know.
HER HONOUR: You didn't hire anyone to give you any advice.
MR XU: No. I don't know. Who gets this information? I don't know where to get and who to get. I just after court I get the information from the Charlie - from the, you know, CVA officer, just before sitting there, and I said, "What I do properly, you know, to make this" -
HER HONOUR: Mr Ure has said to me that, really, what has happened after the Magistrates Court -
MR XU: Yes
HER HONOUR: - is that you took a risk.
MR XU: No, I never.
HER HONOUR: And you kept importing the products without having anyone to help you check. That you took a risk.
MR XU: No, no, no. I didn't took a risk. I just took - because the CAV say to do it like this, I did it like this, you understand. I did it like this. I did whatever said - have to mark, you know, "Do not use boiling water inside." That's already - they showed it again under - what's that - on the test report.
HER HONOUR: It's - Mr Xu, it's not CAVs job to tell you how to comply with the law. It's not their job. It's your responsibility to comply with the law.
MR XU: Yes, yes. Okay.
HER HONOUR: Do you understand that?
MR XU: Yes.
HER HONOUR: Because I'm not getting the sense that you do understand. I think you think someone else should do that job for you. It's your responsibility.
MR XU: Okay.
HER HONOUR: Do you understand that?
MR XU: Yes. All right. If like this, that's why - that's why - I - I told you before, because I didn't know such knowledge, that's why I've got the very serious family trouble, my wife said, "You shut down everything", you know. Didn't do anything, because maybe you get more trouble, you know. That's why.
60 Eventually, it appeared Mr Xu may have recognised how he needed to do things differently in the future:
[Mr Xu]:
… You know, it's very easy job - not hard, you know, these days. You just tell them - said, "That's the Australian requirement." They can do it. Because I didn't know, that's why. I just listened to the CAV officer, Charlie, you know, say that, "You just do this, do this." That's why. And then later, I have to - if I run the business, I have to get the professionals around me. Yes, otherwise I will stuff it again, maybe.
HER HONOUR: Well, I'm waiting to hear if you have learnt that lesson. I'm not sure yet that you have learnt that lesson.
MR XU: No. No, I have to for later. I have to do like this. I can't - I can't, you know, because - because you - it's already see these guys, you know, sitting there witness, and they can change anything. They just can say, "I forget it" or whatever, but I need - I have to get specialist to help me to do this, you know. Come to realise whatever they say, you know.
61 Mr Xu was also cross-examined about some statements he made to CAV staff during an interview conducted under s 126 of the Australian Consumer Law and Fair Trading Act 2012 (Vic). This was the cross-examination, and Mr Xu's answers:
[Mr Ure]: … Mr Xu, I'm going to submit to the court -?-Yes.
- that you've indicated to Consumer Affairs that you would declare bankruptcy if Consumer Affairs prosecuted you. Now, did you say that in your interview with CAV? - I explain such things, yes. I did explain such -.
Did you say this:
If you guys, you know, seriously treated me, I just declare bankrupt. That's it. That's what I'm doing.
Did you say that? - Yes, I did. I did at the examination say that, because my small business, can't stand, you know, pressure like this.
And did you also say, in an email to Naomi Lay:
I can terminate my business at any time and declare bankruptcy by your wish, but still, sincerely hope that you will make right decision.
? - I say this at - because Naomi Lay ever once told me, said "CAV, director of CAV can any time close your door." Close my, you know, business. So that's whether she ever once told me like this.
Shouldn't this court view that as you threatening to use insolvency to avoid paying a penalty? - No, I never threaten. That's a fact, is I'm running a small business like this. Did you see anybody, you know, like this treat a small business like that? And unless they're a - you know, for example, combustible candle holders. Actually, the local supplier gave it to me and then they - they do the advertising on the radio, on the TV, on the newspaper, said I supplied and caused a fire or something. I don't know, all the customer coming to me like this say - and too much pressure like this.
62 I am satisfied Mr Xu did make the statements attributed to him: he did not really deny them. Instead he sought to re-characterise them. I do not accept his re-characterisation. I consider Mr Xu was intimating to CAV that if he was prosecuted he could avoid the consequences by declaring bankruptcy, and winding up his company. As it has turned out, Mr Xu has not taken those steps. However, I find he was prepared to represent to CAV that he might do such things if they brought proceedings against him, and that his aim was to dissuade them from bringing proceedings. In the circumstances, I do not see this as especially relevant to the level of penalty, which should be set by reference to the contravening conduct itself. However, this kind of behaviour by Mr Xu is consistent with him seeking, as I have found above, to deny any real harm has come of the contraventions, to diminish their seriousness and to avoid personal responsibility for them.
63 Finally, Mr Xu was cross-examined about some of his financial interests. He had not volunteered any of this information. It became apparent that not only did he and his wife own the two commercial premises in Hallam and Clayton from which the retail and wholesale business had been run, and at least one of those properties were now leased to third parties, for substantial income. Mr Xu also confirmed that the Hallam property was for sale, at an advertised price of $2 million, he and his wife having purchased it in 2013 for $980,000. Mr Xu's evidence was that both the commercial properties were not encumbered by a mortgage, but that at least one property was not owned outright by Mr Xu and his wife. Certificates of title in evidence indicate that the Clayton property is the subject of a mortgage, but the Hallam property is unencumbered. Mr Xu also confirmed he and his wife still had a commercial property in Northcote Plaza, which was leased.