And then you purported to put the usual questions and required an oversighting officer in getting positive answers from Coffman. Do you remember that?---Yes.
Is that the interview which you say did not take place? Perhaps you need to - - if we can go to the next page, please?---Yes.
In fact, did you go anywhere near Coffman in that context?---No.
...
During the proceedings here - when evidence was being led of your alleged conversation with Coffman in these circumstances, did you hear Coffman say something?---Coffman said either to his solicitor or to the instructing solicitor or his barrister, 'I've never seen this bloke before.'
Was that correct?---He might have glimpsed me, but that was about it.
And insofar as the evidence that you fabricated was supposed to result in the adoption of an interview between Higgins and Staltari and Coffman, to your knowledge had any such interview taken place?---Well, I can't say - - -
WITNESS: - - - can't say that it didn't take place in some form or other. I mean - - -
MR HASTINGS: What does that mean?---If I was to - - whether I was going to or - - sorry, it's not the plan usually to verbal a person. I mean, if you can get the necessary admissions, well, then you do so. A lot of the questions and answers in the interview may well have been given and the answers - - the questions given and the answers received.
In the oversight procedure that you fabricated you made reference to saying, 'I said, "Have you read the interview with you'll"'- - 'I said, "Have you read the interview they had with you"' and at the top of the page "now in front of you?" you fabricated the response, 'He said, "No. Nick read it over to me"? --- Yes.
Did you know whether that had happened or not?---No, I can't remember now.
The remainder of the evidence was - - ?---It may have been that he couldn't speak - - it may well have been that he couldn't read. Don't know.
The remainder of this parcel of evidence was from F2 and Dowding, who claimed that when they were escorting Coffman down to the cells after your oversighting role had been allegedly discharged they had a short, sharp conversation with Coffman during which he made what seemed to be an interview - sorry, seemed to be an admission. Do you have any knowledge as to whether that admission was actually made or not?---I believe not.
Was that matter that you described as 'a short, sharp one' I think earlier - - -?---Yes.
As being something which was fabricated when you met? ---Yes. It was to link in with the - - from memory there was something in the interview with - - the Perth interview was to do with family or something like that and this was linked into that by saying something like, 'I'm stuffed. I've lost the family' or something similar to that.
I've referred you to the alleged conversation between Higgins and Staltari and Coffman?---Yes.
Your alleged oversighting and the alleged short, sharp verbal between F2 and Dowding and Coffman?---Yes.
Were they the matters that had been discussed at this meeting that you talked about earlier in which you had been the main player in ensuring consistency?---Yes.
MR HASTINGS: There were some other aspects of the prosecution case against Coffman which you've discussed with F2 from time to time, have you not?---Yes.
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There's just one aspect of your discussions with F2 that I want to particularly bring to your attention. On one occasion when F2 was, I think, having lunch with you and some other officers in May of the year 2000, during which he recorded the conversation, there was a discussion about the Coffman matter ... there was ... reference to Mr Staltari that I want to bring to your attention, in that you are recorded as saying this, 'Staltari didn't know' and F2 said 'He wouldn't have known what was going on, mate.'
You said, 'Piggy - - Piggy was going - -'F2 said 'Staltari said to me - - Staltari to me was just a sort of a boy to fucking hit Higgy.'
You said, 'Yeah, he was.' And then F2 said 'The last time I was over there - - You said 'Piggy' and F2 said 'Staltari didn't want anything to do with me at all.' And then you said 'Higgy - - Piggy didn't know what was going on either, how we do this. Piggy told me about the print' and you said 'This is what we do.' One construction of that passage of conversation is that you were indicating that Mr Staltari was unaware of what was going on in terms of the fabrication of the evidence. Was that what you meant?---I don't - - I didn't quite catch all of that, I'm afraid. I've been confused a bit with - - - when you say 'the print' and the - -
All right. Commissioner, unfortunately it's not scanned into the system. Perhaps if we take the adjournment now, if that's all right, I might give the witness the opportunity to read it over the break.
COMMISSIONER: Yes.
MR HASTINGS: And he can respond then.
COMMISSIONER: Yes, very well. We'll adjourn until 2 o'clock.
COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Hastings?
MR HASTINGS: Witness, before lunch I had asked you whether you could explain some dialogue between you and F2 which seemed to relate to this matter, in the course of which you said, 'Staltari didn't know' and F2 said, 'He wouldn't have known what was going on, mate', and he then said, 'Staltari to me was just just, sort of, a boy to fucking Higgy', and you said, 'Yeah, he was'?---Yes.
Are you able to recall to what you were then referring? ---I think we were just referring in general to Staltari's relationship to Higgins.
Which was what, as far as you could see?---The junior and senior man.
Yes, thank you, Commissioner, that's all.