(2) Advice from Mr Green in 2012
30From early 2011, Verekers Lawyers had acted for the Keddies partners in the defence of at least some of the claims made by former clients. Mark Green is a partner of Verekers who specialises in insolvency. At some point, he commenced providing advice to Mr Roulstone and his wife. In his affidavit, Mr Green says he also met with Mr Barakat. Mr Green said he understood that Mr Roulstone was not only obtaining advice for himself, but was obtaining advice that "encompassed his common financial dealings with Tony Barakat". Mr Barakat said he met with Mr Green twice in March 2012, and that otherwise Mr Roulstone passed on Mr Green's advice. This evidence was not challenged. I accept it.
31In his affidavit, Mr Green recounted meeting Mr Roulstone and his wife on 28 February 2012. Mr Green recalled that the opening comments of Mr and Mrs Roulstone were that they wished to use the outstanding payments from the sale of shares to Slater & Gordon to meet Mr Roulstone's forthcoming capital gains tax assessment. Mr Green also recalled Mr Roulstone expressing concern about the partners' ability to meet the total amount of client claims. Mr Green said he inquired about the quantum of that exposure and what was known about Mr Keddie's capacity to meet those claims.
32Mr Green also said he informed Mr and Mrs Roulstone of the powers of a trustee in bankruptcy to reclaim a bankrupt's property. He said he advised Mr Roulstone to negotiate with Firths and to seek to "slow down any bankruptcy moves by Firths." Mr Green said he advised Mr Roulstone that if he could not negotiate a settlement with Mr Firth, "you can look at an arrangement under Part X and possibly avoid bankruptcy". He said that he explained that arrangements under Part X of the Bankruptcy Act 1966 (Cth) were an alternative to bankruptcy.
33Mr Green recalled the following exchange then occurring:
"Mrs Roulstone: 'What about the tax?'
Mr Green: 'As I understand your position, there is no assessment and so no tax presently due and payable but tax once assessed will become due and payable in the future when you get a notice of assessment. So from what you are telling me there is no point in paying the Commissioner because to do so is just as likely to be a preference to him if Scott is declared bankrupt. It's probably better to keep the money aside on the basis it can be part of an arrangement to try and settle with all your creditors including the tax department but from what you have told me and as it stands if you pay the tax and end up bankrupt the ATO will have to give the money back to a Trustee. Better for everyone to set it aside as part of a fund to deal with all creditors. The ATO will not be pressing too quickly and from a lot of work I have done with Barristers and the ATO I can say the Commissioner is willing to look at arrangements to pay tax as long as he is satisfied you have genuine financial difficulties and you are working to meet your commitments.'
Mr Roulstone: 'Well I certainly don't want to go Bankrupt.'" (emphasis added)
34In his affidavit, Mr Green also recounted meeting with Mr and Mrs Roulstone as well as Mr Barakat on 14 March 2012. He recalled being informed of the likelihood that all the claims from former clients could not be met. This is consistent with a finding I have already made. Mr Green also said that he reiterated his advice about pursuing negotiations in respect of the claims by former clients.
35At some point in this period, the share sale agreement with Slater & Gordon was amended. The remaining amount of the deferred cash consideration was reduced and the payment date was brought forward. Apparently, Slater & Gordon had agreed to this on condition that the proceeds would be used to pay outstanding claims, especially those to which Keddies Insurance was a defendant. Mr Barakat and Mr Roulstone both stated that they negotiated the variation to allow them to meet their impending capital gains tax liabilities.
36On 30 April 2012, Mr Roulstone informed Mr Green of the amendment to the share sale agreement. Mr Green recounted the conversation as follows:
"Scott said to me words to the effect: 'we are due to receive further instalments from Slater & Gordon from the sale which we were looking at using to pay the tax' to which I replied words to the effect, 'I think that to keep your options open for dealing with all of this you are better off to hold on to the money rather than pay the ATO who will really only be one more unsecured creditor and if you could get a deal with Firth then based on past experience I expect you will be able to get a deal with the ATO'."
37On 1 May 2012, Mr and Mrs Roulstone met with Mr Green. Mr Roulstone's accountant, Mr Wickenden, also attended for part of the meeting. Mr Green says that he canvassed various options with Mr and Mrs Roulstone. He said that he advised them about the operation of various provisions of the Bankruptcy Act including the powers of a trustee in bankruptcy to avoid uncommercial and preferential transactions. He said he again advised them about the possibility of avoiding bankruptcy by entering into an arrangement under Part X of the Bankruptcy Act.
38Mr Green recalled stating to Mr Roulstone:
"As you have money coming to you [you] should quarantine it where you can keep control of it to support a Part X arrangement and so avoiding bankruptcy, you can't really pay it to one creditor in preference to another but the amount would be [a] good start to a workable arrangement although one of the problems is that if Firth gets all his clients proxies for a meeting of your creditors he will control the outcome of any creditor meeting and the creditors can require you to file a debtor's petition."
39In his affidavit, Mr Green recounts having a further meeting with Mr and Mrs Roulstone and with Mr Wickenden on 9 May 2012, and then again on 22 May 2012. Mr Green says that in the meeting on 9 May 2012, he discussed the inter-relationship between Mr Roulstone's capital gains tax liability and the level of his superannuation contributions. Mr Green recalled being told that the quantum of Mr Roulstone's capital gains tax liability arising on the sale of his shares to Slater & Gordon, had been clarified. He states that he was also told that it had been determined that Mr Roulstone could effectively halve his capital gains tax liability if he made a substantial superannuation contribution. In his affidavit, Mr Green states that he "identified nothing wrong with Scott making a contribution as recommended by the accountant" especially as it "might ultimately work for the benefit of creditors at large". Mr Roulstone gave a similar account, although he said the advice was given on 22 May 2012. Mr Wickenden did not provide an affidavit which addressed this meeting. However, on 23 October 2012 he provided a written advice which was entirely consistent with the opinion attributed to him by Mr Green and Mr Roulstone in the meetings held in May 2012.
40At this point, it is appropriate to note the content and the effect of Mr Green's evidence as the advice he gave.
41First, it is clear that Mr Green repeatedly advised Mr Roulstone and through him, Mr Barakat, as to the operation of the bankruptcy laws and the powers available to a trustee in bankruptcy to undo dispositions of property.
42Second, it is clear that on 28 February 2012, Mr Green was advising them both not to pay their creditors, including the Australian Tax Office (the "ATO"), but instead, to hold on to their funds.
43Third, it is clear that Mr Green gave this advice in a context where the desired outcome was to avoid bankruptcy altogether. In part, Mr Green's advice was that this might be achieved by "keeping the money aside as part of a fund" from which it was hoped to "deal with all creditors". The only real consideration given to post bankruptcy possibilities and their effect on such assets was in that part of the meetings during which Mr Green discussed the powers of a trustee in bankruptcy.
44To this point, I have not referred to the advice that may have been given concerning any specific proposed disposition of property by Mr Roulstone or Mr Barakat other than the superannuation contribution by Mr Roulstone that was discussed in May 2012. The evidence concerning what advice was given about two types of dispositions, namely dispositions to family trusts and payments to discharge loans to secured creditors, needs to be addressed.
45In her affidavit, Mrs Roulstone deposed to attending a meeting with Mr Green "some time prior to 1 May 2012" which addressed what was to occur with the proceeds of the accelerated payment from the share sale to Slater & Gordon. Mrs Roulstone explained that the Roulstone Family Trust (the "RFT") was indebted to her, but that her husband owed it funds. Mrs Roulstone described the advice that she and her husband received from Mr Green about the possibility of making a payment to the RFT as follows:
"7. Mr Green's advice was to the effect that it was sensible and appropriate that the payment by Slater & Gordon should be paid to the Roulstone Family Trust, and that the trust could then pay that sum to me in reduction of the debt due by the trust to me. The basis of that advice as Mr Green explained it to my husband and me, was that if it became possible to negotiate a composition with creditors, which would depend on the outcome of the negotiations which were then taking place with Mr Firth, or if those negotiations were unsuccessful and my husband were to become bankrupt, the money was best placed where it could be retrieved if necessary. The expression he used, I recall, was to the effect that it should not be paid to any other creditors because that would be a preference, but should be placed where you have control over it.
I recall also he said that the payment to the trust probably would be regarded as a preference and the money would have to be repaid in the event of bankruptcy.
8. I said to Mr Green in the presence of my husband words to the effect: 'If it has to be paid back, I will pay it back. That won't present any problems'.
9. It was always my intention to assist my husband in any way possible, firstly to avoid bankruptcy, but if that proved to be impossible to assist him to reach an agreement with his creditors which would enable him to come out of bankruptcy as soon as possible. Accordingly, it was the case that by paying the money to the trust in repayment of my husband's debt, and the trust paying the money to me, my husband did, indirectly retain control as Mr Green suggested." (emphasis in original)
46Mr Roulstone also recalled receiving advice to this effect prior to 1 May 2012. He also says that the advice was repeated on 1 May 2012. Further, in cross-examination, Mr Roulstone stated that the suggestion that the money that was paid to the RFT should be on-paid to his wife was, in fact, Mr Green's.
47In his affidavit, Mr Green recalled a discussion about a payment to the RFT, but did not state when it occurred. He recalled being told of Mr Roulstone's indebtedness to the RFT and of the RFT's indebtedness to Mrs Roulstone. He stated the following about the advice he gave on this topic:
"I recollect telling Scott that, given his stated intention to deal with his creditors and avoid bankruptcy I could see no issue with him paying money to the trust on the basis proposed but that if he was not successful in avoiding bankruptcy, the payment being a payment to a related entity, and involving a preference over other creditors, might be clawed back by [the] trustee in bankruptcy as a preference and it was likely that the bankruptcy trustee would try to recoup it but the same situation was likely if he used the money to pay the ATO.
I advised Scott that, given his desire to avoid bankruptcy, he could pay the money to the family trust, so that the money could be made available to try and do a deal with Firth to avoid bankruptcy or if a deal could not be done then to put [it] into a Part X arrangement."
48There are some potentially significant differences between the respective accounts. First, both Mr and Mrs Roulstone stated the advice they received on this topic was provided prior to 1 May 2012. This is possibly significant because the moneys were paid to the RFT from the proceeds of the deferred consideration payable under the share sale agreement on 1 May 2012. Mr Green did not nominate the date when he discussed the RFT with Mr and Mrs Roulstone. On his account, it was unlikely to have been before 1 May 2012 because he recalled receiving a call on 30 April 2012 during which Mr Roulstone told him about the accelerated payment that had been negotiated with Slater & Gordon, and that it was due to be made the next day. It would seem unlikely that he had a meeting in the afternoon of 30 April 2012, and then another one the next day on 1 May 2012.
49Second, Mr Green did not state whether he was specifically aware of the proposal to pay funds out of the RFT to Mrs Roulstone, much less whether he approved that course as suggested by Mr and Mrs Roulstone. This is a potentially significant difference in that that step made the task for a trustee in bankruptcy of recovering funds from the RFT as a preference, that much more difficult. That said, it is clear that Mr Green was told that the RFT had an indebtedness to Mrs Roulstone. It is difficult to understand what the significance of that information was if it was not imparted in a context in which Mr Green was told that moneys would be paid out of the RFT to Mrs Roulstone.
50In any event, Mrs Roulstone was not cross-examined. Mr Roulstone was cross-examined, but his version of events in this respect was not challenged. Mr Green was also not cross-examined so that the opportunity to take up these potential discrepancies with him did not arise either. The Law Society's case on unfitness effectively proceeded on an acceptance that the various transactions involving the RFT was undertaken in reliance on advice provided by Mr Green. In these circumstances, and where there is no direct inconsistency between the two strands of evidence, I accept Mr and Mrs Roulstone's evidence concerning the advice given by Mr Green about the payment to the RFT and out of the RFT.
51In his affidavit, Mr Green does not refer to ever having been asked to provide advice about the disposition of funds by Mr Roulstone or Mr Barakat to repay debts secured over real property. Each of Mr Barakat and Mr Roulstone were pressed in cross-examination concerning transactions that each of them engaged in, pursuant to which their own funds were used to discharge a liability of theirs but which was secured by property owned by another. In Mr Barakat's case, the property was owned by his wife. In Mr Roulstone's case, the property was owned by the RFT.
52Mr Barakat was asked about these transactions by me as follows:
"Q. Why did you apply your money to pay that debt of yours and not others? ...
A. Your Honour, we received advice from Mr Green to the effect that the first thing that has to be paid is the loans that were secured by banking institutions. So when the sale of the - especially when the sale of the Roseville house was finalised all that money, both mine and my wife's share, went to pay that debt and also the balance was topped up by myself.
Q. When did you get that advice from Mr Green?
A. That would have been late February.
Q. Did Mr Green say why that was the case?
A. I think it was - at the time I didn't really understand it fully. But I think I understand the reasoning behind it was that in the event of a bankruptcy or an arrangement prior to bankruptcy, it was - it was advisable that we retained control through various entities of the funds, so they can be reapplied in the event there was a settlement or a composition to go into the pool of funds to be available and be distributed to creditors. I think it was more of a control issue."
53Mr Barakat explained that the payment he made discharged the loan over the property owned by his wife. He said that the property was later refinanced and the proceeds were used to fulfil his obligations as part of the agreement he reached to annul his bankruptcy.
54In the case of Mr Roulstone, in cross-examination he was asked and answered as follows:
"Q. What difference did you see in paying $1.2 million in broad terms across to the Roulstone Family Trust and $500,000 into the NAB loan for the Thredbo property again owned by the family trust, compared with not paying tax?
A. I personally would have preferred to pay my tax, but I took comprehensive advice, I think from the end of February with Mr Green, and we went through a lot of the accounts and brought the accounts of myself and the associated entities up to speed. We involved the accountants which was Mann Judd heavily and I think I must have met with Mr Green probably five or six times, and it was his strong view, his strong advice that I pay the Roulstone Family Trust, that I make the superannuation contribution in the way that I did and also that I pay the NAB bank loan on 16 April, as I did. It was a secured loan, and I received hours of advice on those matters."
55I also addressed some questions to Mr Roulstone on this topic. He stated that Mr Green's advice was to pay off any secured debts because the financier had priority, "and it would be taken by [the financier] in any event." Mr Roulstone said that advice was given on 14 March 2012.
56It seems that Mr Barakat and Mr Roulstone both described Mr Green as being more proactive in advising that they pursue some of the impugned transactions than suggested by Mr Green in his affidavit. Nevertheless, I accept their evidence that the discharge of loans in their name secured over the property owned by a close associate was discussed with Mr Green, and he did not advise them not to engage in such a transaction. To the contrary, he gave advice that that was a step they could take as it was consistent with the strategy he had outlined to Mr Roulstone in the meeting on 28 February 2012.
57Overall, the effect of the advice given by Mr Green was that Mr Barakat and Mr Roulstone should cease paying third party creditors entirely and instead should "set aside" amounts which could be deployed either to negotiate with the creditors to achieve an overall settlement, or failing that, to pursue a Part X proposal in order to avoid bankruptcy.
58Realistically, such a proposal was only likely to be persuasive if some doubt was raised in the minds of the creditors as to whether bankrupting Mr Roulstone and Mr Barakat was likely to yield a better result than a negotiated settlement or a Part X arrangement. The most likely basis for persuading the creditors of this was to put forward a proposal involving a contribution of funds from close associates in circumstances where the creditors would know that there would at least be some doubt as to whether those funds would be available if bankruptcy was pursued.
59However, at this time, Mr Barakat and Mr Roulstone's efforts were directed to avoiding bankruptcy. No doubt, each of Mr Barakat and Mr Roulstone were seeking to maximise their ability to do that, yet they were not acting indifferently to their creditors' plight. Further, it is unclear from this material as to what position they would take post-bankruptcy if their efforts to avoid it failed. There is some significant evidence on that topic provided by other advisors which I will outline shortly.