The District Officer intervened:
Q. Is there anything that we could do to make you comfortable about talking about it?
A. A different time.
Q. At a different time. O.K. And why would a different time make it a bit, make you a bit more comfortable?
A. 'Cause it'll give me a little time to know what to say." (emphasis added)
22 He was then asked whether something had happened to him. He agreed, but again expressed a wish not to say anything. He was then told by the interviewing officer that they had been informed the appellant had done something to him. It was only at that point in the Record of Interview that D made any allegation of sexual assault.
23 In the course of the interview, D alleged that the first act of anal sexual assault occurred in his bedroom. He was not able to put a date on when it occurred. He said it occurred on his bunk bed. He could not remember what he was wearing (but he could remember specifically what the appellant was wearing). His statement was non-specific as to what occurred as he was being assaulted, other than that it was "gross". In relation to the first assault he replied "I dunno" when asked what was occurring.
24 D then said he remembered the second time and identified an occasion when his mother was out shopping. He said he went to the toilet in the ensuite of his parents' bedroom. The appellant was on his bed. He said when he came out of the toilet the appellant sexually assaulted him. However, as the story unfolded, D said that after he went to the toilet he went and laid in the appellant's bed to read because that bed was "big and comfortable", whereas his own bed was "really small". D then said it was at this time the appellant "came in and did that", meaning anally sexually assaulted him. When asked what it felt like when being assaulted he said "weird" and "gross". When asked to explain what he meant by "weird", he said "Just didn't feel right". When asked "… what did your bum feel like" immediately after the assault, he answered "I'm not sure".
25 He said he knew the appellant had assaulted his brother because C had told their mother. When asked whether he had overheard the conversation between C and his mother, he said "I heard [C] laughing". I pause to observe that that answer, in my opinion, was so incongruous with what might be expected from a young boy complaining of serious sexual assault that it should have alerted a prosecutor to take care when assessing the reliability of the allegations.
26 A second Record of Interview was conducted with D on 19 October 2000. By that time he had been placed in foster care. Much of the questioning was directed to D not wanting to be in foster care and some 'interference' by his older sister who suggested that he should withdraw the allegations and tell the police that he had "made them up" because he was "looking for attention". However, D denied this was the case and confirmed that the assaults had occurred, and again provided details of the assault in the appellant's bedroom. He described the appellant as a "filthy disgusting person".
27 D was also questioned about the doorknob. He said that the doorknob on the bedroom he shared with C was broken and that C had broken it when he had had the bedroom to himself. However, in her affidavit in the Children's Court proceedings filed on 7 December 2000, the mother referred to the broken doorknob and the bedroom arrangements. The only inference to be reasonably drawn from the affidavit is that the boys shared a room at this time and there was not a time when C had a room on his own. The matter of relevance for present purposes, however, is that there were inconsistent accounts relating to the doorknob.
C's Records of Interview
28 C was first interviewed on 13 October 2000 and then again 5 days later, on 18 October 2000. He was 8 years and 9 months old at the time. C was severely hearing impaired and was required to use hearing aids. In the first Record of Interview, which was conducted by the same District Officer who interviewed D, and in the presence of C's teacher, C was asked a series of questions about "good touches" and "bad touches" and about the various parts of the body. He displayed a clear understanding that in relation to "bad touches" he could tell his mother, the police, or 'welfare' and if he was subjected to a 'bad touch' he "would tell somebody" (emphasis added). It also appears that he understood that he was being interviewed by "the welfare".
29 The District Officer asked whether there was anything he wanted to tell them, but he replied in the negative. He was then asked a series of questions relating to whether he had been touched on various parts of his body. Relevantly the following emerged in the course of this questioning:
"Q. Has anybody touched you and it's been a bad touch? Either on all the parts that you've pointed to me that are bad?
A. Touching, but not the bad parts, but on the back and that.
…
Q. Who's touched you with a tap on the back?
A. My friends and that and they do jokes.
Q. Yes, O.K. So you're, if I say to you that you're telling me that nobody's touched you in a bad touch, is that right or is that wrong ?
A. Yeah, it's right. (emphasis added)
…
Q. What about if somebody rang me up and said that they think somebody touched you in a bad touch?
A. … touch you was in trouble
Q. Yes. But what if somebody told me that that happened to you?
A. Then, that … touch you was in trouble
Q. Yes. O.K. You're not in any trouble today, O.K. …
Q. So you know how we were talking about these good touches and bad touches?
A. Yeah.
…
Q. O.K. You know, O.K., which part. How about if I just ask you each part of the body somebody's touched you. Is that a good idea? Do you understand?
…
Q. O.K. Has anybody ever touched you on the penis?
A. No.
…
Q. O.K. I just forgot to ask you one question about the penis. Have you ever seen anybody else's penis?
A. No.
…
Q. Has anybody ever touched you on your, you've given my three names now, anus - - - -(emphasis added)
A. Yeah
Q. - - - buttocks and bum.
A. No. No one's touched me there . (emphasis added)
Q. … somebody told us that you told your mum that your dad, [the appellant], did some bad touches ? (emphasis added)
A. Who?
Q. I can't tell you who told me, but is that true or is that a lie?
A. No, it depends on who it is.
Q. Well, what do you think it might be?
A. Probably a lie to me.
Q. So what are you trying to say? Are you trying to say that yes, you did tell mum that you told, I can't even speak English anymore, I'm all very confused, sorry, …. O.K. O.K. So I'm saying that somebody told me that you told your mum that your dad, [the appellant], touched you and it was a bad touch.
A. He hasn't touched me yet . (emphasis added)
Q. Yet. What does, he hasn't touched me yet, mean?
A. He hasn't touched me.
Q. O.K.
A. One of those bad touches.
Q. Pardon.
A. He hasn't touched me in all those bad touches.
Q. He hasn't touched you in all those bad touches. O.K. Why would somebody tell me that you told your mum that your dad touched you, your dad, [the appellant], touched you and it was a bad touch?
A. I dunno. To get him out of the house, I suppose.
Q. Get him out of the house.
A. 'Cause [D] really wants to do that.
Q. [D] really wants to get him out of the house, O.K. Do you know if your dad's done this bad touch to anybody else?
A. No, but he's done it to my brother.
Q. He's done it to your brother. O.K. How do you know that he's done it to your brother?
A. He's told me that, my brother told me."
30 C said that "it" had happened to his brother about 2 years previously, that D had told the mother and that the mother had become "angry" but had told the boys she wanted to "get [the appellant] out of the house [and] she wanted [the appellant] to stop doing it [abusing C and D] but she couldn't afford to be by herself".
31 The questioning continued:
"Q. O.K. So that day that [D] was telling your mum about what happened, did [D] say anything else?
A. No.
Q. No.
A. And mum told me if that ever happens to you, just tell me, but nothing of that's happened.
Q. Somebody told me that that has happened to you.
A. Who?
Q. I can't tell you who.
A. Maybe mum, or something.
Q. Why would your mum tell me something like that, do you think?
A. I dunno.
Q. Have you ever told you mum that that's happened to you?
A. No. It's never happened . (emphasis added)
Q. O.K. So you've never told you mum that anybody's penis has gone into your anus?
A. No.
Q. No. Has anybody, O.K. So, so far you're saying to me that nothing's happened with you and nobody's ever touch you in a bad way? Is that right?
A. Yeah.
Q. Yes, O.K. Do you think you could tell me if they did?
A. Pardon.
Q. If somebody touched you and it was a bad touch, could you tell me?
A. Who?
Q. Could you tell me if somebody touched you and it was a bad touch?
A. Yeah.
Q. Yeah.
A. This is like a welfare (sic), something."
32 The second Record of Interview with C was conducted on 18 October 2000 by the second respondent, assisted by the same District Officer. C had been brought to the interview by the District Officer after C and D had been at the Children's Court earlier that day. C told the District Officer that at the Court he had spoken to a person who worked there about "all the disgusting things …Dad did ..to me and [D]". The interview continued:
"Q. Cool. So when you say the word, disgusting, what does that mean?
A. That it's rude um, awful things.
Q. Like what, tell me?
A. Like how he wants, would put a penis in a person's anus and all that.
…
A. Well, he um, he did all these awful things.
…
A. He um, he um, when he started it was in 1999 and he um, he first started, he said, Do you want to do this? And I said no, and he said, Oh well I'm doing it to you anyway then this happened … and he sat on me and all that.
…
A. I said, No.
…
A. Then he kept doing it and doing it and I told …
…
A. Yeah and um, he um, put his penis in my anus.
…
A. … nice kisses that he likes.
…
A. He went out into the kitchen, right … these things. I don't … watches me taking clothes off all the time when I go in the bath.
…
A. And he, … a few weeks ago he um, he wanted me to put my um, penis into his anus and I said, No.
…
A. I didn't go to school, do you know where's Canberra, the um, Heritage Hotel .. all that.
Q. In Canberra, what did he do?
A. He laid on me in this hotel, hotel, it's called The Heritage hotel.
…
A. That's … and every time he comes home from work he winks at me, he um, loves me too much.
…
A. … um, he tells me not to tell Mum … that's all.
…
A. Not to tell anyone, tell anyone. That's all.
…
33 On being questioned as to where and when the assaults had occurred, C's evidence was specific that they started in May 1999 at the house in which the family lived first at W. His account then changed. He said that the assaults had commenced at N where the family was currently living, having moved there about two and half years previously:
"Q. I want to talk about each of those different things that you told me about. You said that it started in 1999. How do you know that?
A. Because that's when he started because I just remembered it.
…
Q. … When you say it started in 1999, what part of 1999 did it start?
…
A. It was in um, May.
Q. In May. How do you know it's May?
A. Because I … remember it.
…
Q. O.K. Now, how is it that this started in 1999 which is last year,
A. Yeah. Well it happened down at … [the present home].
…
Q. It's very important. So, did it happen at [the first home] or [the second home]?
A. [the present home].
Q. Are you sure about that?
A. Yeah.
34 The interview continued and C made the following allegations about the assaults:
Q. .. And you said before that he said, Do you want to do these things?
A. And I said, No.
Q. .. Do you remember where you were when he said that to you?
A. I was just in the loungeroom (sic), nobody was there and no one else.
Q. Do you know where the other people were at that time?
A. My Mum was at work, my sister was at a friend's house …
…
Q. So when your dad said, Do you want to do these things, what time of day was it?
A. Monday. I mean Saturday
Q. Saturday. How do you know it was Saturday?
A. I had to remember it.
…
Q. Yes, what time of the day was it?
A. 3 o'clock in the afternoon.
Q. How do you know it was 3 o'clock in the afternoon.
A. It's in my brain.
…
Q. … All right, so, and you said to him, No?
A. Yeah.
…
Q.. He said, I don't care, I'm doing it anyway.
…
Q. What did he say that he wanted to do?
A. I can't remember …
Q. And after you said, No, and he said, I don't care, I'm going to do it anyway, what happened then?
A. I said, What? And … call Mum … then I told her what happened, what he was going to do and he got in trouble on the phone . (emphasis added)
A. I got out, I snuck out of my room and I got the phone and rang Mum up.
35 He repeated this and also confirmed that the appellant did not in fact "do anything" to him that day.
36 C then described how his mother had taken the door knob off his bedroom door and told him where a butter knife was so that he could open it. C said that thereafter the bedroom door was kept locked every day and every night. He was asked some questions about who slept in the same bedroom (his brother D shared the room with him). The interview continued:
Q. You said before that he put his penis into your anus, who is he?
A. [the appellant].
Q. When did he do that?
A. Heaps of times, all the time he … at home … at work.
…
Q. So how many times has he put his penis in your anus?
A. Ten.
Q. Ten. Are you guessing or do you know for sure, ten?
A. I know for sure.
Q. O.K. Ten times. When was the first time?
…
A. I can't remember.
Q. How old were you when he started doing that?
A. I can't remember.
Q. Was it this year, last year, the year before?
A. Last year.
…
Q. So the first time happened .. Where were you when he put his penis in your anus?
…
A. I can't remember.
…
Q. … Do you remember the last time that happened?
A. About last Wednesday.
…
Q. … what part of the day …?
A. Around 2 o'clock.
…
Q. Were you at school last Wednesday.
A, Yes … it happened at 4, I don't know.
Q. It happened at 4 because you've forgotten it?
A. Yeah."
37 C then referred to incidents of the appellant watching him in the bath.
38 A little later in the interview the second respondent returned to the topic of the trip to Canberra. C said that he and the appellant had travelled to Canberra in the appellant's car. He alleged that whilst staying at the Heritage Hotel the appellant had sexually assaulted him in the shower.
39 Further on in the interview, C said that he had denied the sexual assaults in the first Record of Interview because he had been embarrassed.
40 Apart from the general allegation made in the early part of the Record of Interview, the only specific instances of assault that C alleged were, first, one on "about" the Wednesday prior to the interview and secondly, the assault he alleged had occurred in Canberra.
41 C was interviewed a third time on 8 February 2001 by the District Officer and a female sergeant of police. His understanding of telling the truth was clarified. C then said that he had "not really" told the truth last time. The interview continued:
"Q. Not really? What, what wasn't the truth?
A. Well, the other way round.
Q. I don't understand
A. You probably don't understand, yeah.
…
Q. Did you, did you say true things when we've spoken before or did you tell some lies?
A. Some lies.
Q. Some lies? Yes. What were some lies?
A. Like what [the appellant] didn't do like.
Q. What [the appellant] didn't do? O.K. what, what did - - -
A. Some parts he did.
…
Q. What are some parts he did?
A. Well, he did the bottom part.
…
A. Yeah. He kissed me and that.
…
A. And he sucked down here or something
…
Q. And you've, sucked the penis.
A. And that's the only parts of … he did.
…
Q. What parts, you said that there were some parts that he didn't do, what didn't, what didn't [the appellant] do?
A. Well, really I can't remember.
…
A. 'Cause, 'cause [D], I was a bit shy to tell it to Ray [the welfare officer at the Children's' Court]
Q. Yes.
A. But then when [D] told Ray and he had a talk to me.
Q. O.K. So you were shy to tell Ray and then [D] told Ray for you. What did [D] say to Ray?
A. That it didn't happen.
…
A. Some things happened but mostly it didn't happen.
…
Q. - - - but mostly it didn't happen.
…
Q. Well, what was it you want to change?
A. Like I go home, but mostly nothing did, didn't happen.
Q. So you want to go home?
A. Yeah.
Q. Is that right?
A. 'Cause I just had to speak the truth.
Q. Yes, O.K. So you said the truth because you want to go home?
A. Yeah.
Q. Yes, O.K.
A. The reason I can just tell a lie 'cause I really didn't like [the appellant] too much . (emphasis added)
…
Q. It would be O.K. Are you worried that he might do those things that you said he, that he, that you said he did. Are you worried about that?
A. No.
…
Q. Why, why don't you think he would do those things?
A. 'Cause I can just go and tell him to stop it. That's what I've done the last time and he just stopped it.