The Tahmoor robbery
16Evidence was adduced of a telephone conversation or conversations that took place between the appellant and his partner, Ms Mandy Sutton, on 6 May 2006, which ran as follows. DW means the appellant and Ms Sutton:
DW - DNA is inconclusive... you know what I mean... (IND) .. some other bloke wearing me clothes..... you know.. I though...IND.. all they are hoping on you hanging on you....they want you what happened at the you know... they want you saying it was me there. So it all hinges 'round...(IND)
TR70
DW - if you say that you are scattered out... you can't remember what you've said
DW - about whether what if said or whatever
MS - I'm not saying anybody said anything or whatever
DW - Hey?
MS - I'm not saying that I'd say anything or whatever or anybody said anything.
DW - Well what they ... (IND)
MS - I reck' I reckon... I reckon Rick"s missus that he was with, is, is the person that's fucken said shit to 'em, that she's told them everything. 'Cause they said, oh we've got like It, like someone who is involved in like sort of your situation in which would be like her probably. If they threatened her or something or offered her money or something, she fucken take it...
DW... it"s not work thinking about it...they are just coming to the end of the fucken.. they are just throw everything they can....
TR47
DW this is the their last straw... last straw.. he said to me today... he goes to me today... we put a IND out... someone rang through and said it was you, and said it was me... I said, oh yeah...I said, so fucken any cunt can ring up and say it was me... Could be dirty on me...could be fucken whatever.. he was like... he was like I wouldn't even fucken... mumble.. I want to formally interview ya, want to put you in a line up, we want to DNA test ya and it I was like..... he sort of wanted to do it then... They'll probably DNA me... right... that'll take a little while to come back you know what I mean,
TR 48
DW - And we'll just say... listen.. Me and me missus split up,, fucken I took all me clothes to Ricks. He borrowed me clothes and he had a mate staing saying with him. He was a big fucken Islander.... the cunt wore my clothes. I'll say I left all my clothes... you know what I mean... someone wore me clothes....
MS... mmmm
MS.. the other day.. he goes, we've got... we've all we need to can him... you could just be the icing on the cake, that would be sweet [laughing]. (14 Enhanced)
DW.. They need you just to keep the investigation open....
MS .. Hey?
DW.. They need you just to keep the investigation open....
TR 52
DW... thing is.. we know that you and Rick were running around doing stick ups together. We just want to know if you did the Dungog...
fucken...
MS... was he Aussie...
DW... mmm.... IND.. MUMBLES.
MS was that the other week?
DW... Today
MS... boy's been machine gunned
DW... mumbles... buy a Gun..... you know what I mean.... It goes like this....yeah, I've got some legal advice... I'll just tell them to charge me or let me go.. if they don't' charge me then they'll let me go.. What I'll say, is one thing me barrister told me to ask me was, how do you propose to do a line up when um.. apparently the people were wearing balaclava's as stated in the paper. So you'll put a balaclava on.. line me up wearing a balaclava on eh?
17Although the conversation concentrated on the Dungog robbery it dealt also with cable ties and so was relevant to the Tahmoor robbery. The appellant gave evidence at trial and was asked about the conversation. He agreed that the "Rick" referred to was Anson. He said that he was formulating a lie to tell the police in case they obtained a sample of his DNA and falsely accused him.
18The Crown called Ms Sutton and asked her about induced interviews she had had with investigating police officers on 2 and 15 June 2006. Ms Sutton agreed that on 9 February 2007 she had pleaded guilty to a charge of being an accessory after the fact of assault with intent to rob with a dangerous weapon. That offence took place at Smiths Lakes. She agreed that at her sentence hearing she had signed an undertaking to give evidence in the prosecution of the appellant on the Tahmoor and Dungog matters. Her evidence was to be in accordance with the answers she gave in the induced interviews. She accepted that she had received a corresponding benefit by reduction of her sentence.
19It was the Crown case that Ms Sutton had told the truth in the answers she had given in the interviews. The transcript of what was said did not go into evidence but the Crown obtained leave to cross-examine Ms Sutton and put the text to her. There were these questions and answers. The references to "David" were to the appellant and those to "Carol" were to Carol Puru, the appellant's cousin:
Q. So, Carol said that. "She said, 'How - how about that taxi driver' and something about having to get it''--
A. Well, really, Carol couldn't have said it because she's just gotten out of gaol in Queensland, so--
Q. How about you just listen to what I'm reading? Your answer, "She said 'How - how about that taxi driver' and something about having to get it for and just sit on because he was so fat or something." "Carol said that?" Answer, "Yeah." Question, "What did Dave say?" Answer, "He was just laughing." Question, "he was just laughing?" "Yeah." Over the page, question 382, "Okay, so the next thing in my notes, they laugh about how scared the people were. Dave told me one job where a taxi driver turned up and was tooting his horn and then he came, he was scared, Dave was laughing, is that correct?" No reply. Question, "That's what you - that's the one, that's the one you just told me about?" Answer, "Yeah." Now, that's what you said, didn't you, on 2 June?
A. Well --
Q. I've read that correctly?
A.-I just read that last night, that I'd said that.
...
Q. On 2 May 2006 did you say this to Detective Revette, in the notebook that your initials appear on? "Dave told me one job where a taxi driver turned up and was tooting his horn, then he came in, he was scared. Dave was laughing"? That's what you said?
A. Yeah because he just told me that outside.
...
Q. Your answer, "They" and remember, mentioned shortly David and Carol, "They said at one job that they did they were in the middle of it and a taxi was beeping out the front or something. He came to pick someone up and then the taxi driver must have come inside." Question, "Right." Your answer continues, "And they told him to get down on the floor and he wouldn't and couldn't' because apparently he was large." Question, "Mm." Answer, "So they kicked in a crate and made him sit on the crate." Question, "okay, did they tell you anything else about that robbery?" Answer, "No audible reply." Question, "But more importantly what did David say about it?" and you knew he was speaking about David Wilcox; that's clear, isn't it? You're not disputing that? Correct?
A. Oh, correct.
Q. Your answer, "Just that I think they got - he", referring to David, "said"--
A. Does it say "David" or does it say "he"?
Q. All right, I'll read the question. "But more importantly what David said about it"?
A. Was that the question?
Q. Yeah, that was the question. Your answer, "Just that I think they got, he just said that they got about ten to fifteen grand each"?
A. So my answer was "he"? it wasn't "David".
Q. Oh I see. You were confused, were'nt you?
A. Yes, of course I was.
...
Q. Next question, toughy, "Okay." Answer, "That was." Next question, another tough one, "Yeah". Answer, "It was really just said about - about the taxi driver." Right? You go on there and you surmise that Puru may have been involved, then you were asked this, "Do you know which part of the State that job was in?" Answer, "New South Wales." Question, "But any idea where in New South Wales?" Answer, "I think it was Dungog, wasn't it or I think it was that one at Dungog"?
A. Because when my house got raided, they took me out to Minmi pub and sat me there and said, "Do you know anything about the robberies at Dungog" and this. They're the ones who told me.
Q. Oh, I see, so the police put in your head Dungog?
A. Yes, they did.
...
Q. You were asked about that in the first interview you did on 2 June 2006, weren't you?
A. (No verbal reply)
Q. About cable ties?
A. Correct.
Q. Right? Now, you told me either, didn't you, before I started to ask you about what you said in these interviews, that you spoke to the accused about cable ties some time after the police executed the search warrant at your premises, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. No problem with that, is that right?
A. Mm-hmm.
Q. And it was on that occasion that he told you that they were used for tying up garbage bags?
A. Mm-hmm.
Q. Right. Now, when you spoke to the police on 2 June, 392, you were asked this, question, "Cause, cause I asked you, you said you asked him, referring to David, what they were for, and he said, 'For tying people up'"?
A. Because that's what the police had told me at Minmi pub.
...
Q. ...Question, "You said to me he told you that they were for tying people up because", which of course is what you had at answer on the previous page. Answer, "Yes", or yeah. Question, "It was quicker and you put your hands together behind your back when you said that", you demonstrated it on the tape didn't you?
A. I can't remember, I was stoned.
...
Q. Bottom of page 21, question 183, "Did he, referring to the accused, tell you any other way in which they would control people on jobs?" Answer, "Putting guns to their heads", "Okay so pointing guns at them. Anything else to restrain people?" Your answer, "Tie, tie their hands behind their backs and Rick would say that he learnt that, that he used to be in the merchant marines". Question, "Right". Answer, "Something". Question, "okay". Your answer, "And they used, like, plastic cable ties", "All right how do you know that?" Answer, "Because the - he got me to go and get some, buy some once, and I asked him, 'What?'" Question, "All right". Answer, "What he was buying". Question, "Yeah?" Your answer, "Them and also in a raid they, they had down, when they raided my house at Minmi, they were looking for cable ties and I asked him why", referring to David, "And he, he said, 'That that's what they used to use to restrain their hands''", "Okay so hence the cable ties. Who asked you to but the cable ties?" Answer, "David", "David did?" "Yeah".
A. And garbage bags too.
Q. You went on again--
A. And chicken and bread rolls and beef and all the rest of it, what we used to get at the supermarket but it's not a big--
Q. Well did you tie that up with cable ties as well?
A. No, but if was, like, going to get your groceries, like, what's the big deal?
Q. In the same interview a few questions further on, page 23, question, "Is this when you were living at Minmi?" Your answer, "yeah". Question, "And the police executed a search warrant?" Answer, "yeah", or yes. Question, "You looked at that search warrant and read?" Answer, "What, yeah". Question, "and then did you ask David referring to Mr Wilcox?" Answer, "Yeah". Question, "What did you ask him?" Answer, "Why on earth would they have that for, like, why, what's, you know, that seems strange they'd found them". Question, "Mm-hmm". Answer, "they found cable ties, search in". Question, "What, what?" Answer, "That's what they used to restrain people's hands with". Question, "Okay". Answer, "And he said about Ric used to tell them that he was in the merchant marines and this is how he learnt to restrain people that way". That's what you said there, correct?
A. (No verbal reply)
Q. That's what you told the police isn't it?
A. The police told me.
20Before the jury Ms Sutton explained a way her answers in two not entirely consistent ways. First, she said that she had not understood what was being said on the occasion of her answer because she was under the influence of heroin. Secondly, she had told lies at the suggestion of investigating police officers. The thrust of her evidence was that no answer she had given about the appellant was true. It thus appeared that her evidence before the jury was entirely opposed to the undertaking she had given to her sentencing court.
21The jury were appropriately directed about her evidence in these terms:
You must decide, in the case of such a conflict, whether you accept the evidence given in the trial or what the witness said in the earlier statements. On the other hand, it may be that in view of the conflicts you feel that you should reject the evidence of Ms Sutton altogether, that is to say that you may not be able to be satisfied one way or the other as to whether she was telling the truth here or in the statements to police.
In any event, in respect of the earlier statements, I must warn you that such evidence may be unreliable. It may be unreliable firstly because it is hearsay evidence. She says she was relating to the police what she says someone else told her, or what she said the accused told her. The law recognises that hearsay evidence may be unreliable. Things tend to get lost in the translation and, of course, in any event, the accused was not present during the conversations that Ms Sutton had with the police in those interviews.
It may also be unreliable members of the jury because as you know, Miss Sutton obtained a benefit from making those statements. She obtained a reduction on her sentence for the offence that she was charged with and so therefore she had an incentive. Mr Stewart would say she told the police that she thought they wanted to know so that she could obtain that benefit. And she said it kept her out of gaol. So on that basis also, members of the jury, that earlier evidence as contained in her statements, may be unreliable. Whether it is or not is entirely a matter for you. All my task is to do is to alert you to the possibility that those statements may be unreliable and why.
22Cable ties like those used in the Tahmoor and Dungog robberies were found amount Ms Sutton's toiletries. The appellant was residing with her at material times.
23There was evidence showing that the appellant and Anson associated with each other. It derived not only from the telephone conversation between the appellant and Sutton extracted above. They resided together at times.
24After Anson's death his house was searched. A rifle was found there, bearing the appellant's palm and fingerprints.
25A DNA profile developed from a sample taken from one of two balaclavas found there matched the appellant's DNA profile.
26A DNA profile developed from a sample taken from an unused cable tie found at the Tahmoor Inn matched the appellant's DNA profile.
27The appellant's size and build were similar to the size and build of the larger man.
28The occupants of the Tahmoor Inn gave evidence in which they described the appearance of the two attackers and the things they said and did. I shall deal with it as I deal with the appellant's submissions.