The evidence continued (635.9-637.2):
"What happened after that? Well, I was still in this position and I told him to let go, that I was hurt and that I would get out of there as soon as possible. I told him I would leave, and try - I tried to keep the blade from twisting any more and - so that I wouldn't get cut, but that was about it. I sort of leaned back a little bit and I noticed there was blood on Chris's left side. And I told him, 'Chris, you're hurt as well.' We were both hurt. And, 'You gotta let go.' And he wouldn't let go. But I don't think I would have either, because we were both scared of the knife. Eventually we both calmed down a little bit, not a lot, but we both calmed down. We were very very tired from struggling with that position, and then he said it, that it hurt him. And after he calmed down he released the knife gently and I lifted it away. After he let go, I was overwhelmed with what happened. I was terrified and scared of all the blood, and just the idea of the knife. I was sorry for him, me, my family, everyone. I don't know, everything just rushed across. Chris expressed that he was very concerned over the blood. He couldn't see his own wound so he zeroed in on my hand and saw all the blood just gushing from my hand. I wanted to run away. I wanted to run away home. I was hot, very flushed, I remember and I wanted to cry. I told him that 'We got to take you to the hospital. I mean, you look more hurt than I am', and he was - started to moan by this time every now and then. But I didn't know whether he was more hurt or less hurt than I was. I just felt that we had to go to emergency or something. He said, 'No, no.' 'Well then, I'll call an ambulance.' He said, 'No, no, I'll do that.' So I says 'All right, do it.' I got up and went over to the sink and ran water over my big gash that you guys saw in that picture, and it was free flowing with blood, and I let it run under the sink to cool if off. I also had the knife, so I ran water over the knife and I remember running my finger on it.
Can you recall why you did that? No. I just did it. I was watching Chris telephoning and it was just something to do. I don't know. I put the knife down and I went into the toilet and tried to relieve myself, but I couldn't. It was - I was too upset. I remember blood falling down in the toilet area, and then I decided to go outside because I was so flushed and hot that I decided to go outside to cool off.
And by that time had you heard any conversation over the telephone from ---? Chris was talking to somebody, yes, but I don't remember who he was talking to.
And when you decided to go outside, did you take the knife with you or not? Yes, I did. I went outside and stood beside my car. One time or another I believe I put the knife on top of the car. I accept now, that I put it on top of the water heaters as well but that part is very fuzzy.
On top of the water heaters or ---? Well, whatever they were in that corner, I don't remember what they were.
All right? My eyes were - I wasn't - cries - but my eyes were really watery and tears were coming down. It wasn't that I was sobbing, it was just continuous flow of tears.
And after you had been out at your car, what happened then? I tried to collect myself. I tried to come together with all the survival training and everything that I have ever had but it didn't do any good. I was very, very upset, I was scared. Here was I was bleeding. Chris was bleeding. I didn't know what to do about the knife. I didn't know what that meant and I was thinking about getting Chris to the hospital."
47 The opponent then returned to the room. The evidence continued (637.6-638.5):
"And then when you got back to the room, how far - did you go into the room? Yes, I went in the room. I believe that I stood in front of the bed near the TV set near the door somewhere. I told Chris, 'We have to go to hospital.'
And what happened then? He still didn't want to go and it was - everyone tells me it was only 15, 10 minutes but it seemed like a long time and the ambulance seemed never to come. But anyway, I told him, I says, 'Well, Chris, I am going to go tell the police what has happened' and he said, 'Well, I won't tell' and I said, 'Yes, yes, you will tell but please don't make it a big story, you know. Don't play - I know you will play it for all it is worth.'
Yes? And then he said, 'No, I promise' he promised and he promised that he wouldn't tell and that he was sorry and I said, 'Not as sorry as I am, Chris, not as sorry as I am' and he promised that he wouldn't tell and I told him that 'What did he mean by that?' Well, he said he wouldn't tell anything and I said, 'Well, we will get together couple of days and we will make up a story so neither one of us gets in trouble with the police.' He asked me for a drink of water and I remembered my wife telling me rules about not giving liquids to people in stress so I didn't, I told him why. He asked me if Susan was really seeing someone else and I said, 'What difference does it make, Chris?' and I actually said - I actually said, 'Here we are, both bleeding to death and you are worried about what Susan is doing. She couldn't care less about you or me'. And he said, 'You are wrong Frank, she loves you, she worries about you.' And I said, 'Chris that doesn't mean very much coming from you.' I told him that I was - no, no, before that, we went off on another tangent completely. He was worried about how long he would be out of work, he was worried about getting back to Sydney because he had to go to work on Monday. He was worried about his - he had some computer, he had something very important to do on Monday with computers and I told him, 'Well, I don't know how long you are going to be laid up' and so I told him 'I have to leave because Susan, I know, will be here and it will get ugly' so I told him I was leaving and I left. I remember closing the door, I don't remember locking it and I accept that what everyone else has said, that I turned off the light but I don't remember that either. Everything was very upset, my heart was still pounding away like crazy …".
48 In cross-examination the opponent described events from the end of the fight thus (676.2-677.4):
"You told him you were hurt? Yes. He saw the blood coming down.
Did he tell you he was hurt at any time? He did after I told him several times that he was bleeding and there was blood on my right side. He wasn't moaning or anything like that, no.
He then released the knife, did he? Yes.
What sort of condition was he in at that stage? I think we were both very exhausted and he just released it.
Did you notice blood on his shirt at that stage? The blood that was from my hand, yes, sir.
Blood from your hand on his shirt? Yes.
You didn't notice any wounds to his chest? No, sir.
Or any blood on his shirt that hadn't emanated from your hands? There could have been more blood. I was just - my concern was getting out of there. I wasn't looking at things that carefully.
And he was obviously in a great deal of pain, wasn't he? Not obviously.
Well, wasn't he moaning in pain? He started to moan after all the excitement and - yes sir.
And then the two of you had a conversation? Yes, sir.
And you say you offered to take him to the hospital? Several times, sir.
And on each occasion he refused your offer? Yes.
I take it you didn't actually try to ring an ambulance? No, I didn't because he said he would do it.
Well, did you examine him to see how badly hurt he might be? No, sir. I was very excited then. My heart was pounding like crazy. I felt like running away. I didn't know what to do.
Well, you got up I take it from the bed? Yes.
And he continued to lie there? Yes.
On his back? Yes.
Made no attempt to get up? He sat back when he went to make the phone call, that's about it.
What he moved himself back onto the bed, did he? Yes.
And sit up? I don't recall that. I think he did. Half sitting, half laying."
49 A little later the opponent gave the following evidence (678.5-679.9):
"You've offered to ring the hospital or an ambulance and he's refused? Yes.
At that stage, you went over and washed your hand, didn't you? Sir?
You washed your hand? Yes. I ran water over my wound.
Prior to that, you'd already told Mr Wilder that he was hurt, hadn't you? Yes.
Didn't you make any inquiry as to the nature of that hurt? No.
Did you dry your hand on the towel? Possibly, yes, sir.
You then rinsed the knife? While he was on the phone and the water was running in the sink. This was the knife and I went like that. That's all I did.
Why did you do that? I don't know sir.
And then you went to the toilet? Yes, sir.
Do you remember - I think you said you remember blood falling down into the toilet area? Yes.
Where was that coming from? My left hand.
And was it at that stage you heard Mr Wilder talking to someone? Yes.
Did you hear what he said? No.
You came back out of the toilet, I take it? Yes.
Make any examination of Mr Wilder's injuries at that stage? No.
Did you ask him about them at that stage? No.
Were you concerned about his condition at that stage? As I said before, this was a very, very stressful time. It was happening very, very fast. Yes and no I was concerned. Yes and no I was concerned for myself.
Could you see blood on his clothing at that stage? I don't recall. I do remember seeing blood on the bed, that's it.
I take it he was still lying on the bed when you came back out? Yes.
Did you observe anything about the colour of his face? No.
And did you ask him, 'Is there an ambulance on the way?'? No.
Did you ask him that? No.
Or anything like that? No.
But I take it that although you may not have known the extent of his injuries, he obviously was injured? Yes, sir.
And you walked outside, did you? Yes, sir.
Was that because you felt hot? Flushed, hot and everything else, sir, yes, sir.
But you didn't just walk outside the door, did you, you went all the way to the car? Yes."
50 The opponent then gave the following evidence under cross-examination about events after he returned from the car, five or ten minutes later (681.4-684.6):
"It didn't occur to you to go back within that time to see how Mr Wilder was getting on? That's why I went back.
You went back to look after Mr Wilder, did you? I went back to take Chris if I had to drag him to the hospital, yes.
I see. What sort of condition was he in when you got back? He was on the phone.
Did you hear any of that conversation? No.
But he told you he'd been talking to his parents? Yes. He was just hanging up, or ringing up, or whatever.
What sort of state was his voice in? I don't recall that, sir.
What sort of condition did he appear to be in? He looked all right, I don't know. I was overly concerned with myself at that time, sir.
I see. You didn't notice anything disturbing about his condition, lying on the bed? No, sir.
And you had another conversation running for some minutes, did you? Not some minutes, I think it took about 30, 45 seconds.
Right. Well, you had a conversation about you wanting to take him to the hospital? Yes.
And about him still refusing to go, is that right? Yes.
You had a conversation with him about making up a story to tell the police? Yes.
You had a conversation with him about whether Susan was really seeing somebody else? Yes.
You had a conversation with him about how long he was likely to have off work? Yes, but these were all - those conversations are almost verbatim and if you repeat them out, there was no lull or anything, it was just direct.
You were back in the room, I think you said, some four to five minutes? You said that. I said 45 seconds.
Well, I suggest to you that in your evidence in chief after lunch you said you went back for four to five minutes maybe? ---
HIS HONOUR: No, it was 45 seconds to a minute? That's what I said, 45 seconds to a minute.
MR CRISPIN: Thank you, your Honour. My note is obviously an error.
HIS HONOUR: I can understand the error, it is very close.
MR CRISPIN: Now, by then it was obvious, wasn't it, that this man was quite seriously hurt? Not so obvious, no, sir.
Well, there were obvious blood stains on his shirt by then, were there not? Yes.
And on the pillow case? Yes.
And the bed? I remember on the bed, yes.
And his condition was obviously a serious one, wasn't it? He was hurt and moaning and everything was happening very fast. As I said, I tried to explain my condition. I was very flush, my heart was pounding, I was excited. I didn't notice all these little things, no sir.
I see. Well, I suggest to you that his condition was painfully obvious, wasn't it? You can suggest that, yes, sir.
Were you in the room when you saw two people walk past, a man and a woman? Yes.
And did you observe them look across to the doorway? Yes.
And at the time that occurred I suggest to you his condition was obviously serious? I don't know, sir.
I see. Did that occur while you were having these conversations with the accused - with the deceased? Yes.
And after that period of approximately 45 seconds to a minute, had you obtained any assurance from Mr Wilder that an ambulance was on the way? I wanted to take him and he said that the ambulance was coming. That's all I heard.
Right. And by then was he obviously bleeding heavily? I told you before I didn't notice those things.
Right. And you didn't look? No.
And you didn't stay to offer him any assistance or first aid? I wanted to get out of there before Susan came and cause all kinds of problems.
Well, what made you think that your wife was coming? Pardon?
What make you think your wife was coming? I had sort of guessed that he had called her. He was calling his mother. He was calling somebody - I'm sure he was calling Susan.
And you thought that she might arrive before the ambulance, did you? Yes, it only takes two minutes to get from the house.
And then I think you said - you said to Mr Wilder, 'Susan will be here. It'll get ugly'? Something like that.
What did you mean by that? That she'd be hysterical and accusatory and everything else.
And so when you left you had nothing in mind other than to avoid that confrontation with your wife, is that right? Yes.
Was Mr Wilder on the phone again when you left? No.
What was he doing? Just laying there, I think.
So far as you knew, waiting for the ambulance? Yes. I told him them [sic] were people outside and that the ambulance was coming.
Well, why did you tell him there were people outside? Because I could see people outside.
Where were they? In the periphery of my vision, just like the two people that walked by.
Well, there other people moved by then, were there? I think so, yes, sir.
Did you speak to any of them? No.
So you thought that help was at hand, is that the position? Yes, I did.
But you walked out and locked the door? I don't remember doing that but I do remember closing the door, yes, sir.
And you turned the light off? I have been told that I did that, yes sir.
Can you offer any explanation, other than pure callousness for doing those things? Sir, I was walking around like a zombie, I didn't know what I was doing then.
You see sir, I suggest to you that when you came back Mr Wilder said in a quite loud voice, 'No, no, don't, I will leave, stop. I will leave, it hurts, I will leave' didn't he? Are you saying he did this.
I am suggesting to you that that is what Mr Wilder said? All right, go ahead.
I beg your pardon? Go ahead.
Yes. Well, that is what he said, wasn't it? I don't think so, no."
51 Later the opponent said (698.2-699.3):
"Did you at any stage ever notice blood on your shirt? On my shirt?
His shirt? Yes.
Where was that? Right in front of him where it had gone down my hand and down his.
That was in the middle of his chest, was not it? Since we were moving around it could have been in three or four different little spots.
When you returned to the room did you notice any blood to the side of his shirt? No, sir.
Did you notice any blood in the vicinity of that wound on the left hand side? No, sir.
If you look at photograph 11 in exhibit 35? Yes, sir.
I take it, if that blood was there, you did not see it? No sir. I think people had said that he had a towel over that side of himself.
Now when you walked in on that second occasion, that is, after you had returned following this incident, Mr Wilder was on the phone? Yes, sir.
And he told you he had been speaking to his parents? Yes, sir.
I think you have heard his parents give evidence that he had in fact - that his voice had been strangulated and they could not recognise who he was initially? I believe so, sir.
And he told you he was dying? I do not know, sir.
But in any event you say, do you, that he put down the phone and you had quite a chat about a number of things? Yes, sir.
And among that chat he told you he was worried about how long he would be out of work. He was worried about getting back to Sydney because he had to go to work on Monday? Yes, sir, he did.
Is that right? Yes.
You still say that happened? Yes, sir.
His voice was reasonable [sic] clear, was it? That has always been a shocking thing. He was a conscious and alert and talking reasonably well.
Reasonably well? He spoke very softly anyway, sir.
You say his voice was not strained, do you? Every now and then but not - I could tell he was hurt, yes, sir.
But there was nothing in his voice that gave you the impression that he might be seriously injured; is that right? No, sir, neither one of us thought he was dying."
52 There are two aspects of the claimant's submissions which must be put on one side at the outset. First, the claimant put submissions turning on a preference for witnesses other than the opponent called at the murder trial. To the extent that the submissions do turn on that preference, they must be disregarded, because the evidence of those witnesses is inadmissible for that purpose. Secondly, the claimant's submissions also to some extent contend that the opponent's evidence before this Court was "tailored" to "minimise the suggestion" that the deceased suffered "any great harm" and was inconsistent with his duty of candour in disciplinary proceedings. Though submissions of this kind may be legitimate in relation to the opponent's credibility, they should not be entertained as an independent ground in support of the orders sought unless the Amended Summons is amended further. No application to do this has been made.
53 The claimant submitted (para 13(a)-(l)):
"It is now conceded by the Opponent:
a) He did not telephone for an ambulance at all.
b) He did not actually hear the deceased call one (see T90 line 41).
c) He accepted (T85 line 10) that the deceased told him that he was hurt.
d) He accepted that he did not examine him to see how badly he was hurt (T22[?]).
e) It was obvious that the weapon was sharp and dangerous and had a pointed end (T85-6).
(f) He took no steps to ascertain how far the knife had penetrated (T[85]).
g) He took no steps to ascertain whether the deceased's wounds needed bandaging or tourniqueting (T86).
h) He made absolutely no investigation or inquiry to determine where the wounds were or what their extent was (T 86).
i) At T86 line 50 he made no investigation or inquiry as to the nature of Mr Wilder's hurts.
j) At T682 at the trial he conceded that the deceased was hurt and moaning. At the trial (T683) it was put to him that the deceased was obviously bleeding heavily.
A. I told you before, I didn't notice those things.
k) At T676 he was asked this question:
Q: Did he tell you he was hurt at any time? A: He did after I told him
several times that he was bleeding and that there was blood on my
right side. He wasn't moaning or anything like that, no.