The pleaded 4 January 2006 Representations
50 Mr Saba gave evidence that on 4 January 2006 he had a telephone conversation with Mr Ramadan, the ShoreForm supervisor at the Millennium project, and the conversation was as follows:
So I got a call from Gayaz [Ghayas Ramadan] very early in the morning, and he goes - he goes something like, "There was a big meeting this morning, big tool box pre-start, the whole site sitting in the sheds. They handed out some notice that said Millennium is taking over. ACT has been kicked off the job." And - and - and so all our guys were sitting in the shed. So he goes - he goes, "What do you want me to do?" So I go, "Well, read the notice to me." So he read me the notice, and, you know, [Ghayas]- I speak fluent Arabic. [Ghayas] is Syrian. We can communicate in Arabic together.
Was the conversation in Arabic, was it?---All my conversations with [Ghayas] are partly in Arabic, partly in English. Okay?
So you speak Arabic?---Fluently.
And [Ghayas] speaks Arabic?---He speaks Syrian Arabic.
Right. So doing the best you can, can you translate - - -?---Yes. I can translate.
- - - the Arabic into English for us?---He goes, "What do you want me to do?" I said, "Well, stay in the sheds. See what - you know, see what everybody else is doing." So it wasn't one conversation. It would have three or four conversations over an hour or two, and that conversation - those conversations culminating in him telling me that they were in their sheds, and Phil - this after the big meeting. We were still in our sheds, and Phil Toneguzzi came up to him, and he had the notice in his hand, and he gave it to [Ghayas] because Phil is going, you know, "What's going, boys? Are you going to go to work?" He goes, "Well, you know" - because I told [Ghayas] that we hadn't been paid. [Ghayas] was aware of the situation, and [Ghayas] told me that Phil told them Millennium is taking over. There's no need to worry about payment. Excel and Millennium - sorry. Excel - ACT and Millennium are working out a situation where ACT is getting taken over by Millennium on site, and we should go back to work. And [Ghayas] goes, "What about the money we're owed?" He goes, "Don't worry about the money you're owed. ACT - Millennium is going to guarantee payment for everybody."
Was there any discussion about organisational changes on site?---There was some discussion about that.
What was the discussion about that?---Well, that Millennium had taken over and had taken over from ACT.
Now, you referred to the tool box meeting as [Ghayas] referred it to you. Was there any discussion about [Ghayas] attending that meeting?---Yes. There was - there was a discussion.
What did [Ghayas] say about his attendance at the meeting?
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He - he said he attended the meeting with all the boys. It was a pre-start meeting.
Right. Did he tell you what happened at the meeting?---He said that Mr Toneguzzi and some other people from Millennium addressed the site, spoke about the - the - the notice - this is the 3 January notice - and, you know, basically read the notice and told the people that Millennium were taking over from Excel - sorry - Millennium were taking over from ACT, and, you know, it was business as usual.
Had you met Mr Toneguzzi before this or spoken to him?---We had had - - -
No. You personally?---I had never seen him. I haven't personally met him, but I had spoken to him.
Right. Did you and Mr Ramadan talk about Mr Toneguzzi's position after 4 March?---After 4 January.
Sorry. In the discussion to which you're referring did you and Mr Ramadan speak about what Mr Toneguzzi's position would be on the site?---[Ghayas] read the notice to me, and [the] notice says that he's managing construction for Millennium.
51 In cross-examination about this conversation, Mr Saba's evidence was as follows:
Can you go to tab 87, page 1543. Is that the notice which you received on the evening of 4 January?---That's a copy of the notice, but that's not the actual notice. My actual notice has got the fax transmission stuff at the top of it, but that's the notice.
When you read the notice, you understood that Millennium and ACT had agreed to restructure the ACT contract to design and construct the plant, didn't you?---Yes. That's correct.
When you read the notice, you understood that the restructure would involve the transfer of subcontracts from ACT to Millennium?---That's what it says. Yes, I understood that.
When you read the notice, you understood that it was intended that those transfers would occur on 15 January 2006?---That's correct.
When you read the notice, you understood that Millennium was notifying that it would honour all subcontracts and commitments which it assumes from ACT. Correct?---There's the other bit about:
ACT and Millennium management will be contacting all subcontractors and
suppliers shortly to make necessary arrangements.
Just pausing there?---Yes.
You understood the necessary arrangements to be the arrangements to transfer subcontracts from ACT to Millennium?---Well, the general arrangements spoken about in this notice. That's right. It could be arrangements to provide a higher degree of financial security to subcontractors and suppliers going forward.
Well, didn't you understand that the sentence referring to "make the necessary arrangements" - - -?---Yes.
- - - was a sentence concerning the arrangements appearing in the immediately preceding sentences, namely, the transfers of subcontracts from ACT to Millennium?---I can see where it says that.
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When you saw the reference to "make the necessary arrangements" in the notice, you understood that sentence to be referring to arrangements to transfer subcontracts from ACT to Millennium. Correct?---Well, no, not really. I understood it - it says:
ACT and Millennium management will be contacting all subcontractors and
suppliers shortly to make the necessary arrangements.
That's what I understood, not just those subcontractors they're transferring. Look, this notice obviously was drafted by, you know, some major, major barrister.
I'm just asking you what your understanding was - - -?---Well, no. It says - - -
- - - when you read - - -?--- - - - "will be contacting all subcontractors and all suppliers" - "all subcontractors and suppliers". The previous - the previous sentence doesn't mention suppliers. So no, I didn't absolutely understand that.
So your evidence was that you understood that the necessary arrangements referred to in that sentence were not the transfers of subcontracts from ACT to Millennium referred to immediately above that sentence. Is that - - -?---Are you saying that's what it says in my statement?
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I will have to go back. When you read the notice in January 2006 you understood Millennium and ACT had agreed to restructure the ACT contract, correct?---Yes.
When you read the notice in January 2006 you understood that the restructure would involve the transfer of subcontracts from ACT to Millennium, correct?---Yes.
When you read the notice you understood it was intended those transfers would occur on 15 January 2006?---Yes.
When you read the notice you understood that Millennium was notifying that it would honour all subcontracts and commitments which it assumed from ACT, correct?---Yes.
When you read the notice you understood that the transfer of subcontracts from ACT to Millennium was the mechanism by which Millennium would provide financial security to subcontractors and suppliers?---No. No, I - that's not plainly expressed. No, I didn't understand that. That's not plainly expressed to me, okay. I'm sorry. I didn't clearly understand that, but there are some other paragraphs that I clearly understood and sentences.
You certainly understood that CCC[Q] had a subcontract with ACT as at 3 January 2006, correct?---I understood that.
You certainly understood as at January 2006 that ShoreForm had a contract with CCC[Q] and did not have a subcontract with ACT, correct?---That's correct. But in context to this notice, you know, I had employees there, I was a contractor, I was a supplier, and that's how I read the notice.
After reading the notice you understood that pursuant to the arrangements set out in the notice ShoreForm would have to continue relying on CCC[Q] to pass on payments that CCC[Q] received, didn't you?---Not so much from the notice, but from my discussions with subsequent people I understood that, absolutely. I understood that.
Mr Penfold and you had a discussion shortly after this notice in which you discussed
that matter, correct?---That's correct.
Mr Penfold said, "We're still going to have to deal with ACT"?---That's correct.
And ShoreForm would still have to rely on CCC[Q]?---That's correct.
To receive ShoreForm's payments, correct?---Is that what it says in my statement? Does it actually say that?
Well, isn't that the conversation - the substance and effect of the conversation that you had with Mr Penfold?---Mr Penfold said we have to continue to deal through ACT.
When you read the 3 January notice in January 2006 you understood that Millennium and ACT were intending to finalise a merger of the onsite management teams as soon as possible, correct?---No. No, because at the time of reading the notice on January 5 I was already under the impression that Phil Toneguzzi and Stefan Mortenson were running the job for Millennium. That what I was under the impression. When I read the notice in January 4 that's what I thought the notice says regardless of - you know, if you break it down, it actually says, "We will be merged, blah, blah, blah", but I had the understanding from discussions with [Ghayas] that Toneguzzi was running the job for Millennium, so when I read the notice that's what I read.
So are you saying that you didn't rely upon what the notice said, but rather upon what Mr Ramadan told you as regards the arrangements of the onsite management teams?---No, I relied on the notice and my - just conversations. I relied on both of them. We were talking about January 4. Now in 2014 after, you know, obviously, people have told me that the notice says this, this and that, now I can see the notice doesn't say that. The notice doesn't say that.
Doesn't say what?---It doesn't say Stefan Mortenson will remain as project - and Phil Toneguzzi and continuing, you know - once the merger occurs - because they're saying once - what the notice is saying is after this novation that's what's going to happen, but in actual fact that's not what happened. In actual fact what happened onsite is there was this grey zone, this transition period between January 4 and February 15. February 15 is when the effective date of the - I only know this because of the documents they've shown me. The effective day is here in February 15, and in actual fact in this grey zone, regardless of what the notice says, Stefan Mortenson and Phil Toneguzzi ran the job for Millennium.
Well, I'm just asking you about your understanding - if you have one - when you read this notice in January 2006. Can you try and just focus on that period?---Yes, I will. I will, I will. I'm sorry.
I know it's hard because you cannot separate out what has happened subsequently. Is that the difficulty?---No, it's just the reality is that that isn't what happened.
Well, when you read the notice in January 2006 carefully, as you say you did, you understood that Millennium and ACT were intending to finalise a merger of the onsite management teams as soon as possible?---Yes.
And you understood that in the meantime it was business as usual?---Absolutely. Absolutely.
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Now, very soon after receiving and reading the notice, you had a discussion with Mr Penfold about the notice. Correct?---Yes.
And Mr Penfold told you that CCC[Q] still had to deal with ACT until the restructure was implemented. Correct?---Yes.
You agreed with him? Correct?---That that's what [C]CCQ had to do?
Yes?---Yes. Yes.
And you understood you had a contract with CCC[Q], I think you've already agreed with me. Correct?---Yes.
You understood at the time that you had the discussion with Mr Penfold in early January 2006 that ShoreForm would have to continue to rely upon CCC[Q] to be paid, at least until the restructure was implemented. Correct?---No, no, no. No, I didn't understand that. So after I get the notice, I was speaking to Penfold, and, okay, we're talking about the notice, but we're talking about my 570,000 bucks that I'm - that I'm outstanding. So, you know, no, I didn't understand that my sole source of receiving financial remuneration for my work on Millennium was [C]CCQ, absolutely not, after reading the notice, and specifically because I have Mr Clough promising me that I would get paid. Now, [C]CCQ have already missed payments. They've missed payments. They've broken promises of payment.
I see. So the point at which we - I withdraw that. You thought you had an entitlement to obtain payment from ACT because Mr Clough had - - -?---That's right.
- - - given you certain oral promises, you say?---That's right. That's - and - and made good on them.
When you say "and made good on them", CCC[Q] had made payments to you in December 2005?---Yes, which was the promise that Mr Clough gave me. He promised me that he would make sure I got paid. I got paid. Two days - three days after he says, "I promise you will get paid," I got paid.
So as at January 2006, you believed you had a right to be paid by ACT pursuant to a
telephone conversation that you had had with Mr Clough in December 2005? Correct?---A month ago, yes.
And you also understood as at early January 2006 that you had a contract with CCC[Q] under which you were entitled to be paid for work? Correct?---That's correct.
You understood that CCC[Q] had a contract with ACT? Correct?---Correct.
You understood that following receipt of the notice, CCC[Q] would still have to deal with ACT to get paid until the arrangements were completed? Correct?---That's correct.
And you also understood that even once the arrangements were completed, they would involve the transfer of CCC[Q]'s contract with ACT to Millennium. Correct?---Is this at the time when I read the 4 January notice? Are you saying do I - did I understand that? When you say - or when I spoke to Penfold I understood that?
Immediately following your conversation with Mr Penfold - - -?---Yes, yes. Did I understand - - -
- - - your understanding was that even once the restructure of the ACT contract referred to in the notice had been implemented - - -?---Yes, yes. Yes, yes. And
- - - ShoreForm would have to continue to rely on CCC[Q] to get paid because CCC[Q] had a subcontract with ACT but ShoreForm did not. Correct?---What I understood was I had the commitment of ACT. I had - I had this - this - this "Don't worry. You will be paid. Go out and smash the job." I had this:
Millennium and ACT want to emphasise that this contractual restructure is of a commercial nature and will not affect on-site progress of the project.
That's what I understood. I understood - what I understood was that I had promises that if I smashed the job, I would get paid. What I understood was if I had sat my men in the sheds and suspended work because of the breaches of contract by [C]CCQ for non-payment, that I would have forced my hand, and I would have guaranteed payment because of all this - all these - all these high degrees of security. That's what I understood.
52 Mr Ramadan's evidence of his conversations with Mr Toneguzzi and his telephone conversations with Mr Saba was as follows:
All right. Now, when you rang Mr Saba do you recall what you and he spoke about?
Do you remember what the conversation was between you and Mr Saba?---Yes, exactly.
What did you say to him?---I said to him, "Look, all the boys onsite from different contractors they sitting in the shed. They was mentioning something, they didn't get paid, or, like, they on the strike", so and I told him, "What do you want us to do because we get paid, so it's your call?"
So you had been paid over the December break, but others weren't, and they were in the sheds?---Yes, they didn't get paid.
You asked Mr Saba what he wanted you to do. What did Mr Saba say?---He said to me - said to me, "Get the boys in the shed", so he told me, "I pay you guys, but I didn't get paid, so I'm still waiting, so get the boys to sit down in the shed."
All right. So what did you do?---I called the boys. I said, "Stay in the shed. We're waiting for the call what's going to happen."
Right. How many people did you have under your supervision at that stage, Mr Ramadan?---Between 18 to 21. Yes, I remember exactly.
So having told them, then, that you should sit in the shed, did you go and sit in the shed?---Yes ..... with them.
All right. Now, what time did you have the conversation with Mr Saba that morning?---Around -between 6 to 6.30.
Did something happen shortly after you went into the sheds?---Yes ..... from ACT, he come down ..... - - -
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… Mr Toneguzzi from ACT, had you met that gentleman before?---Yes, I - I met him before.
And in what circumstances had you met him? Who was he, so far as you understood?---He was - he was ..... construction manager for ACT.
And what did you see him do on the site? What was his job?---We see him very much every day, inspecting all the - all the work. Walk through all the jobs. Sometimes walk through the ..... go - go through the program we do every day.
Right. Now, when you saw Mr Toneguzzi that morning, what happened?---Yes. He was - he was ..... a note. I don't know. It's maybe some - something happened ..... that's what he ..... bring the paper with him. He said to me, "Look, I know some people - some people here on the shed, they mentioned they didn't get paid or something." I said, "Look, I call my boss. We get paid. But your guys, you didn't pay them." He said to me, "Look, I give you this notice. Just give it to Tony. Call him, or read it through the phone for him." And that, "We got to get this problem solved. So get the boys back to work, and we can sort that problem later."
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I'm showing you this document. Have you seen that before?---Yes. That's the one.
What do you mean "that's the one"?---That's the one Phil - Phil had give to me on the - on the 4th, on the morning.
And where were you when he gave it to you?---In the shed. Yes.
All right. Do you recall any other discussion with Mr Toneguzzi at the time when he
gave you the notice?---No. I told him, "Look ..... give me this." And he told me to ring Mr Tony, and I told him about that, and, "Let's get the boys back to work .....
get the boys back to work," go discuss that with my boss. So I called Tony. He told
me, "That's okay. Stay in the shed till I ring you." And - - -
All right. Did you do anything with this document?---Yes. I faxed it on afternoon when I get back from ..... I fax it to my boss.
Now, Mr Toneguzzi told you to read it to your boss; is that correct?---To Tony. Yes.
And did you do that?---I did.
When did you do that?---It's in the morning, when I told him.
And did you read it word for word? What did you do?---No. I read some - some of it ..... first couple of ..... something. Tony told me, "I know what that means. That's just - - -"
Do you remember what part of this you read to Mr Saba?---Yes. The first - the first stage.
Can you just tell his Honour what parts of this you read?---You want me to read it? Yes.
Just read the bits that you read to Mr Saba, would you?---Yes:
Millennium Coal Pty Ltd - that's Millennium - and Australian Coal Technology Pty Ltd (ACT) have agreed to structure the existing ..... for ACT to design and ..... the Millennium Coal preparation and … CHPP.
That's what I read for Tony.
Right. Is that all you read? Or did you read any more?---To be honest, I can't remember. But I didn't read it all.
So you can't remember what parts - is what you've just said to his Honour that you can't remember what parts you read?---Yes.
But you didn't read it all. Is that what you've just said?---Yes. Yes. I didn't read it all the way to the end, so. Actually, I can't remember if I read it all.
Right. Did you have any other discussion with Mr Toneguzzi that day?---Yes, we did.
All right. How many times did you speak to Mr Toneguzzi that day?---He was - he was speaking to everyone. There were other contractors, as well, on site. So maybe four/five - four to five times in the morning.
Were all the workers in the one shed? What were the arrangements up there? Was there one shed for all the workers? How was it - - -?---No. It's like - there's, like, three to five sheds there ..... whatever. So they - every contractor, they got their own sheds.
And did you have your own shed?---Yes.
Right. The times when Mr Toneguzzi saw you later that day, do you recall what he said to you, or what you said to him?---Yes. So from ..... we sit down ..... the shed, I think, for another half an hour to hour. And he - he came back to us, and said, "Look, we've got to - I'm running this site. So I want - I want the boys to go back to work." I told him, "It's not my call. It's my boss call." And ..... some other conversation, he came down and said, "Look, I called Tony. Everything is going to be okay. I promise him. So we agreed we've got to pay all the contractors on site. ACT, that's finished. Millennium is taken over. So I'm working now with Millennium." Sorry. Before that - before that, he told me, when he give me this note, he told everyone - he called everyone outside ..... "Look, we're going to have a big ..... meeting in the side office, and we get back to you." And I think when he came to me maybe he called Tony ..... so he told me, "I told Tony all the problems can be solved." So ..... guarantee he going to pay everyone on site ..... contractors.
Did you go to the tool box meeting?---What? In the side - the side office?
Yes. Yes?---No .....
Right?---It's only for the management.
Do you recall any other discussion with Mr Toneguzzi that day, that is, 4 January?---Yes. When - when he told me that's - he called Tony about all this agreement ..... he said ..... going to guarantee the payment. So I - I called Tony straight away. I told him, "Look, he said to me this," blah, blah, blah. And - - -
Sorry. Unless you said "blah, blah, blah" don't say that?---No. So the whole - - -
We want to know what the conversation - - -?---Sorry. So I said to him, "Look, he told me to call you, and he guaranteed the payment for everyone on site. So is that correct?" And Tony said, "That's okay. Get the boys back to work." And we - "And ..... ring me if anything happen." So that's ..... do every day.
And did you go back to work?---Yes. We did.
Did everyone else go back to work that day?---No. No. It's only us.
Right. What other workers remained in the sheds, and didn't go back to work that day?---Look ..... not all the boys come back on that day. So there's still some people coming the next day or something. But, for that day, it was, I think - I think H&M boys, or Commercial Concrete boys, were still - was still in the shed.
And did you tell Mr Saba that other people were in the sheds, or not?---Yes, I did.
When did you do that?---Straight away in the morning. When we go back to work, I said, "Look, we're ..... back. But the other - but the other contractors, they're still in the - in the shed."
Is it after you went back you - - -?---Yes. After we started working.
What, during the day, or at night, or when was that?---No. During the day. Around 9, 9.10, something ..... - when we start working.
And when you rang him and said, "We've gone back to work, but other contractors are still in the sheds," what did Mr Saba say to you?---He said - he said to you, like, what Phil told me ..... the payments are going to be guaranteed. So we are there to do the job to work, not to ..... So ..... keep going working ..... next couple of days.
And did you give the men directions to go back to work?---Straight away. Yes.
You did that? You told them - - -?---I did. Yes.
Do you know the notice that I asked you to read a moment ago?---Yes.
Have you still got it in front of you? What did you do with that notice?---I faxed it to Tony.
When did you do that?---After work.
After work?---Yes.
And where did you fax it from? Did you have a fax machine, did you?---No. From the camp; from the Neebo ..... camp. That's where we stayed.
Right. Neebo - where was Neebo? Neebo was away from the mine, was it?---Yes. It's away from the mine. About hour - hour away.
53 In cross-examination, it was put to Mr Ramadan that the events of 4 January 2006 took place eight years before and that his memory about what had happened on that day was not very good. Mr Ramadan agreed that his memory was not a hundred per cent but he remembered "that's the reason what happened in that - in the job."
54 The evidence of Mr McDonald is also relevant to these events. He was present at the meeting on 4 January 2006. His recollection was as follows:
And do you recall [Ghayas Ramadan] being present at that meeting, being one of the ShoreForm workers?---Hundred per cent surety - not sure. Like, it was a big meeting held, and you're really racking your brain. I was - you know, we were all called into this meeting to say that we're going to be taken over. So to be a hundred per cent perfect, I can't say yes.
When you said in your statement that you remember the ShoreForm workers, who do you recollect from ShoreForm being there?---The only one I really thought was there was [Ghayas]. I can't - - -
That's your - - -?---Yes.
All right. Now, at that meeting, did someone speak to those that were there?---Toneguzzi. Phil Toneguzzi was the - the main speaker.
Right. Doing the best you can, do you recall the exact words that were spoken by Mr Toneguzzi?---He was basically saying that ACT is being terminated, and they're going to be taken over by the main contractor, and basically we - it was business as usual. We carry on, and we've got no worries. Just - he's going to be working for them also, and a few of the other guys are going to be moved over. And basically that was the conversation sort of thing.
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Was there any discussion about how arrangements might be restructured on the site?---There was a word called "novation" or something like that.
Do you recall what was said about that?---Just that word sort of sticks out to me. There was going to be a novation, and further details are going to be sent to us.
Was the issue of payment discussed?---Yes, because a few of the guys there weren't paid, and they were sort of hanging on.
What was said on the subject on payment, if anything?---My recollection - Phil just sort of reassured us that all things are going to be good, don't worry about it, because I hadn't been paid either.
What did he say when he reassured you? Can you remember more or less the words?---More like business as usual. Everything is going to be sort of taken over by the main contractor.
Do you recall anything else that Mr Toneguzzi might have said that day?---Basically "Don't worry about it. Let's get back into it," basically.
55 In cross-examination Mr McDonald was asked and answered as follows:
Is the position, Mr McDonald, that you really have no memory one way or another as to whether Mr Ramadan was at the meeting to which you've referred or not?---That's correct.
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Do you accept that your recollection of the events at the Millennium site in January 2006 to which you've referred is very hazy, to say the least?---Well, that could be correct, yes, because it's a fair while ago.
56 I find from this evidence that what was said was in the context of the 3 January 2006 Notice and referred to the position of those in contractual relations with Australian Coal Technology, rather than the position of ShoreForm or indeed other sub-subcontractors. I find that Mr Toneguzzi did not say to a representative of ShoreForm "Millennium is going to guarantee payment for everybody." So to say would be inconsistent with the 3 January 2006 Notice and, in my opinion, it is inherently unlikely that Millennium would seek by these means to override the contractual arrangements between CCCQ and ShoreForm. As I later state, at [133] below, I find that Mr Kelly, at Millennium, knew of the contractual arrangement between CCCQ and ShoreForm and that ShoreForm was a sub-subcontractor. What Millennium was concerned with was the removal of Australian Coal Technology and the debts that Australian Coal Technology owed to its subcontractors. I do not accept Mr Saba's evidence that he did not understand that what Mr Ramadan told him on 4 January 2006 that Mr Toneguzzi had said was referable to the arrangements referred to in the 3 January 2006 Notice. Neither do I accept Mr Saba's evidence that he understood the 3 January 2006 Notice to be a guarantee by Millennium of payment of all money past, present or future for everyone supplying resources to the Millennium project, including ShoreForm. I accept that Mr Saba was concerned about payment by CCCQ to ShoreForm and I accept that Mr Toneguzzi and Millennium were keen to have the works, including the formwork, continue. However, having seen and heard Mr Saba and Mr Ramadan in the witness box, I am unpersuaded that Mr Toneguzzi said that Millennium, or Excel Coal, would guarantee that ShoreForm would be paid.
57 I reject ShoreForm's submission that on or about 4 January 2006, Mr Toneguzzi provided Mr Ramadan with an assurance that Millennium was going to guarantee payment for everybody on site.
58 I find the 4 January Representations as pleaded were not made.