The interview was concluded shortly thereafter. Sergeant Sherwell, the officer in charge of Parramatta Police Station, then spoke with the accused and Mr Churchill concerning the manner in which the interview had been conducted. Mr Churchill is recorded as saying:
Well I want this recorded down … we've then been asked if we … if we are willing to participate in a line-up and we just said, I said on his behalf, I want to be able to look at the material available to be able to make the decision.
…
Mr Churchill: No he hasn't, but I'm raising the issue on his behalf, he's just not said anything in this interview, I'm raising the issue about how the fairness about this interview has been conducted and that is as the independent officer I would expect the legal function is to record that, there is a challenge to the way this interview has been conducted. This process, he's not waiving his, he might be seeking the opportunity to have this identification … and he might be seeking the opportunity … some considerations, they're very serious matters he's getting charged with … he might be wanting to do is take the time to think about it and that's been avoided by the process of … it's not just a rubber stamp … fact they want to have considered opinion about it. You're just wanting to go through the normal process I understand …
17 The interview was suspended and on its resumption, at a time after the accused had been returned to the prison, Mr Churchill said this in the presence of Detective Hamilton:
First off the client was brought in here, he was … arrangements seems to be made to bring him into this police station some time last night or whatever in the early hours of this morning. I wasn't notified until about one o'clock today about the time of this, about this process was going ahead. I then came out and arranged to … I'm not exactly certain of the time, but my telephone records, the interview, he was advised by the interviewing officer that he was not arrested, I corrected the interviewing officer and he agreed that he had been arrested, my client had been arresting in these matters. V, my client, I made it clear on my client's behalf that they were trying to get him in a line-up and I made it clear, I try and make it very clear on my client's behalf, that once he had material provided to him that he would be in a position to make a decision about whether or not he wanted to participate in the interview. I'm trying to make it very clear that once that material is properly provided he might be willing to do so, the officer made it very clear in the interview that a prior decision had been, already been made to effectively ignore his choice because effectively they were saying that in this case that we would be going to have a photo i.d.
18 A further interview between the accused and Detective Senior Constable Wakeham took place at the Parramatta Police Station on 29 March 2004. Again, the accused's solicitor, Mr Churchill, and his law clerk, Mohammed Ali Darwiche, were present at the interview.
19 The accused was told that the police were here to interview him in relation to the murder of Ahmed Fahda. Mr Churchill responded on the accused's behalf, saying that the accused wished to exercise his right to silence.
20 Detective Wakeham said this:
Mr Aouad, as we indicated prior to the commencement of this interview, we intended to offer you the opportunity of participating in an identification parade in relation to this shooting. You have previously indicated that, through your solicitor, that you sought further information from the police so you can make an informed decision in relation to your decision to participate in an identification parade. In relation to that, I can indicate that there is a number of witnesses to the murder. Those witnesses have provided police with descriptions of the two persons responsible for the murder. Police are aware of certain intelligence which indicates, or suggests, that you are a person of interest in respect of this matter, and in fairness to you we wish to offer you the opportunity of participating in an identification parade. Do you understand what an identification parade is?
A. (no audible reply).
Q 12. Ramzi, I would ask you one further time, I am aware that we have had certain correspondence with your solicitor, but we are obliged to offer you the opportunity of participating in an identification parade in fairness to yourself, so I will give you another opportunity. Do you wish to participate in an identification parade?
MR CHURCHILL: My client has indicated that he wished to be shown precisely what distinguishes him as a suspect, what the prosecution wants to rely upon, all the evidence that is relevant to the matter on him, and why he is being chosen and selected as a suspect in these proceedings. He wants to be able to make an informed decision before, as before he makes a decision as to whether or not he participates in an identification parade or not. He wants to be able to have that information, a very important decision in, in his life. We have previously been in a similar situation at this very police station with Detective Ian Hamilton, and we indicated that we wanted the, he indicated that he wanted to have that material available to him. You have also cautioned this man that he doesn't have to say or do anything at this point of time, and he is electing his rights to silence at this point of time, other than to say, I want material so I can make an informed decision.
DETECTIVE SENIOR CONSTABLE WAKEHAM: Q 13. I can appreciate what you have just said, Mr Churchill, but I am not here to argue with you on a point of law. I am simply here to offer your client the opportunity of participating in an identification parade. We have indicated to you certain information, and we are not going to provide any further information at this particular time, and if it is the case that your client does not wish to answer any further questions there is no point really in continuing this interview.
MR CHURCHILL: He, he wishes to be provided with material which makes him a suspect. He wishes to be able, to be shown material which identifies him and puts him in the scene. He wishes to be shown this type of material.
21 The interview was concluded without the accused saying anything and without his agreement to participate in an identification parade.
22 Mr Delaney's evidence that he selected a photograph of the accused, together with photographs of other persons, as being similar to shooter no. 1 is evidence of identification for the purposes of the Evidence Act. This is because it is evidence to the effect that the accused resembles a person who was present at a place where the offence was committed, at about the time the offence was committed, being an assertion that is based wholly on what Mr Delaney saw, heard and otherwise perceived at that place and time ("identification evidence" - as defined in the Act's dictionary).
23 Mr Delaney's evidence is picture identification evidence for the purposes of s 115.
24 Section 115(5) of the Evidence Act relevantly provides as follows:
(1) In this section:
picture identification evidence means identification evidence relating to an identification made wholly or partly by the person who made the identification examining pictures kept for the use of police officers.
…
(3) Subject to subsection (4), picture identification evidence adduced by the prosecutor is not admissible if:
(a) when the pictures were examined, the defendant was in the custody of a police officer of the police force investigating the commission of the offence with which the defendant has been charged, and
(b) the picture of the defendant that was examined was made before the defendant was taken into that police custody.
…
(5) Picture identification evidence adduced by the prosecutor is not admissible if, when the pictures were examined, the defendant was in the custody of a police officer of the police force investigating the commission of the offence with which the defendant has been charged, unless:
(a) the defendant refused to take part in an identification parade, or
(b) the defendant's appearance had changed significantly between the time when the offence was committed and the time when the defendant was taken into custody, or
(c) it would not have been reasonable to have held an identification parade that included the defendant.
(6) Sections 114 (3), (4), (5) and (6) apply in determining, for the purposes of subsection (5) (c) of this section, whether it would have been reasonable to have held an identification parade.
25 The photograph of the accused that was shown to Mr Delaney in the course of the computer presentation on 1 April 2004 was a photograph taken at the time of his arrest on the unrelated charge on 7 December 2003.
26 Subsections (3) and (5) of s 115 operate to render picture identification evidence inadmissible in the stated circumstances. Each subsection is engaged in circumstances in which, "the defendant was in the custody of a police officer of the police force investigating the commission of the offence with which the defendant has been charged". Mr Segal's submissions with respect to the application of the two subsections involved contradictory contentions as to the meaning of this requirement. He submitted for the purposes of subsection (3) that Mr Delaney's picture identification was not admissible because on 1 April 2004 when he examined the pictures the accused was not in custody in relation to the murder of Ahmed Fahda. His custody was referable to his arrest on 7 December 2003 on an unrelated charge and the identification was of a picture of him that was taken at that time and was thus one "made before the defendant was taken into that police custody" and rendered inadmissible under subsection (3)(b).
27 Secondly, Mr Segal submitted the picture identification evidence of Mr Delaney was inadmissible under subsection (5) because the accused had not refused to take part in an identification parade for the purposes of subparagraph (a) (and neither subparagraph (b) or (c) applied). For the purposes of bringing himself within the provisions of subsection (5) Mr Segal submitted that the accused was in the custody of a police officer of the police force investigating the commission of the offence with which he has been charged.
28 The transcript of an interview conducted between the accused and Detective Hamilton on 1 March 2004 makes plain that the accused was not at that time charged, nor had he been arrested, in relation to the murder of Ahmed Fahda (Q. 17) and that he was already in custody (Q. 18). It is apparent that he was in custody at a correctional centre and that he had been brought to the Police Station from the correctional centre and that he was returned to the correctional centre prior to the completion of the formal adoption of the interview (p 19).
29 The Crown Prosecutor submitted that the accused was not in the custody of a police officer of the police force investigating the commission of the offence with which he had subsequently been charged as at 1 April 2004. The Crown Prosecutor contended that the submissions advanced by Mr Segal under s 115 (3) must necessarily fail. If, for the purposes of subsection (3)(a) the accused was in the custody of a police officer of the police force investigating the commission of the offence with which he has been charged, the picture of him that was examined was not one made before he was taken into "that police custody" for the purposes of subsection (b). I accept that is so. The picture identification evidence that the Crown seeks to adduce from Mr Delaney is not inadmissible by reason of the provisions of s 115(3).
30 In R v McKellar [2000] NSWCCA 523, the Court rejected the proposition that for the purposes of s 115 of the Act the expression "in the custody of a police officer" should be given an extended meaning embracing "some kind of legal power or influence over the person". In this context, Howie J (with whose judgment Fitzgerald JA and Whealy J agreed) concluded the normal meaning to be applied to the words "in the custody of a police officer" namely under the physical restraint of a police officer was the meaning to be given to the term.
31 The decision in McKellar does not assist in the resolution of the issue raised in this case. On 1 April 2004 the accused was in the custody of the governor of the correctional centre to which he had been committed: s 72 of the Sentences (Administration) Act. He was suspected by the police investigating the murder of Ahmed Fahda of being one of the shooters. Those police knew that he was in custody. It was open to them to arrange for his production from custody to a police station for a purpose in aid of the administration of justice. The Commissioner of Corrective Services has the power to make a local leave order authorising an inmate to be taken from a correctional centre to some other place to enable the inmate to assist in the administration of justice: s 25(2)(b) of the Sentences (Administration) Act 1999.