DEANE DCJ: I have got no doubt that what you're saying [is] correct, Mr Hope. I heard her say something like 'Her brother,' and '10 years' and I didn't hear her say, 'He done it like a man,' and I didn't hear her say, 'He doesn't need a girl like -' and I do recall her saying, 'I know Mary.'
HOPE, MR: Yes, I heard that.
DEANE DCJ: Yes.
HOPE, MR: My problem is, frankly this: assuming some jurors heard that and by proper direction they are to discuss evidence that evidence we now can assume or that information because it's not admissible evidence is now in the realms of the minds of all the jurors. The difficulty is it's not just an allusion to custody. It's a reference to a 10 year term of imprisonment and there's only one inference that's available there that whatever the offence was it was of a very grave nature and the source is the sister. It's for that reason I took instructions and my client's instruction essentially is he no longer has confidence that he will get a fair trial. I do regret that I did not raise this point earlier but the transcript was not made available and - - -
DEANE DCJ: In the sense that it didn't come to you until quite recently and obviously there's pressure on the transcription service.
HOPE, MR: I'm not being critical of them.
DEANE DCJ: No, no, I know that and you raise it at the time you say because you didn't hear.
HOPE, MR: I wrote it down differently, frankly, but having checked with two independent people now those two independent people clearly heard that information or most of it and I now must assume the foreman at the very least and perhaps two or three - - -
DEANE DCJ: One just can't assume, I think. We just don't know.
HOPE, MR: No, we just don't know.
DEANE DCJ: What are you asking Mr Hope?
HOPE, MR: My instruction is to apply for an abandonment of [the] trial.
DEANE DCJ: Thank you. Does the state have a submission it wishes to make?
VAN ZALM, MR: Your Honour, I certainly heard the witness say that she didn't want her brother to go down for something he didn't do and certainly I heard something about 10 years but the rest of it I didn't hear.
DEANE DCJ: No, you obviously heard the same as me.
VAN ZALM, MR: I'm pretty sure that most of us heard the same thing but firstly I don't know that the transcript is correct without hearing it, without hearing the tape.
DEANE DCJ: Let us assume that it's correct or - for the purposes of this argument. This does happen from time to time and in my experience it's not always the case that a jury is discharged. Often a judge will, if counsel request it, direct the jury; sometimes counsel don't want that to happen because quite frankly it simply puts more emphasis on something that one doesn't want emphasised, so it's really obviously horses for courses as it were and it sometimes even happens and I'm not saying this is a parallel case but it's apparent to the jury anyway that the accused person might even be in custody at the time, might be a serving prisoner and it depends for forensic reasons sometimes that becomes apparent or part of the case, even the defence case.
VAN ZALM, MR: Yes.
DEANE DCJ: It seems to me, and I certainly understand why Mr Hope makes the application that he does on instruction, and obviously if I had been asked to give a direction in relation to it I would have, but as I say that's always at the peril of emphasising something that a juror may not have heard or, more particularly, putting emphasis on something that really creates a problem rather than resolves a problem.
VAN ZALM, MR: Yes.
DEANE DCJ: I have to say it's obviously unfortunate, but it does seem to me that, and this is based on experience in this court over the years with many juries and many different types of trials, but jurors at the end of the day do as judges request. They do approach the evidence neutrally and fairly, and they often hear most unflattering things about not only accused persons, but witnesses and even complainants. It seems to me that they aren't swayed by that, true to their oath or affirmation.
This jury has now been out for over two hours. We haven't heard from them; so it's hardly as if one could say, and this is hypothetically, hearing a piece of information like that, if they did, taking it on board, they have gone into the room and said, in effect, 'Well, he's guilty because of that particular piece of background.' I mean, that's a very exaggerated analysis, but it seems to me that obviously, given the time that they are taking, they are seriously approaching the task, so I am really not minded now, particularly as they have been out deliberating for over two hours, to bring them back and discharge them. I would have thought, Mr Hope, not that you're asking for this, to bring them back and emphasise it now would really, I think, be most unwise.
HOPE, MR: My instruction isn't that, for those reasons, as a matter of fact.
DEANE DCJ: No, I understand.
HOPE, MR: We have discussed it - - -
DEANE DCJ: I'm sure you have. It does seem to me to be a sensible attitude (ts 301 - 303).