the hearing
63 Both the first and second appellants gave evidence at the hearing, the male appellant first, in the absence of his wife.
64 The questioning of the first appellant began badly, with strong questioning about the passport on a wrong factual assumption. The following was put:
First of all in your protection visa application that you originally lodged with the department you said that you had no difficulty in obtaining your PRC passport that was issued in May 1999. It would seem to me implausible that the authorities would have issued you a passport and you had no difficulty obtaining it, yet they were interested in you because of your religious activities in May 1999?
65 The first appellant then explained in some detail about paying to get a passport. Once again the misconceived assumption was thrown back at him:
[t]hat also contradicts your assertion in your protection visa application that you had no difficulties obtaining that passport if, as you claim today, that you had to have a friend pay a bribe in order to obtain that passport. I suggest to you that that would have been included in the original protection visa application. Could you please explain?
66 The Tribunal then began a series of questions about Christianity. They are set out below in substance. Most of these were answered in a manner that no rational person could complain about. Some answers were said in the reasons to be inadequate. These (perceived inadequate) answers formed a substantial basis for strong and otherwise unreasoned credit findings. No mention was made in the reasons or in the expression of the evaluation of credit of the answers that appeared to be full or correct. Questions and answers on the subject of religion proceeded as follows.
67 The first was a question the terms of which might be thought to be a matter of some theological and ontological debate:
"Which religious faith did Jesus originally belong to?
[emphasis added]
68 The answer given was "Catholicism". Again, one could anticipate some debate about that answer, given the question was as to "belief" and given the position of Jesus in Christianity as the Son of God. The Tribunal replied:
No, [male appellant]. The original religious belief of Jesus Christ was Judaism. Could you please explain to me why you have stated that it was Catholicism when in fact it is Judaism?
69 The first appellant began an explanation which might be seen to have the seeds of a theological answer:
It's a long story. After Jesus was born, before people knew they thought, used the sheep as a sacrifice. I think he was born, he use his own body to sacrifice for the people.
70 The Tribunal demanded an explanation as follows:
Excuse me, [male appellant]. I don't want a long exposition about the history of Jesus Christ. I asked you a very simple question and that is which religious faith did Jesus originally belong to and you said Catholicism. In reality it's Judaism. I would like you to explain why it is a contradiction. That is all I would like you to do.
71 The first appellant responded:
Okay. Jesus is our Lord and we believe in Catholicism. So he is a symbol of our religion. So first of all Jesus and then ….his follower, then it comes down from generation to generation.
72 The first appellant was asked what the Trinity was. He responded: Holy Father, Holy Son and Holy Spirit.
73 He was asked who executed Jesus Christ. He responded "Ponch Pilate", whom he explained was "in charge at that time" and who (he said) asked the people who to execute, Jesus or the villain; the appellant then said, in an apparent reference to the freeing of Barabbas, that "the Jews say let the villain go and execute Jesus".
74 He was asked why Jesus was executed. He said:
Because he was spreading the principle of Catholicism. And he was betrayed by Judas, his follower. Judas, his follower. Okay, by kissing him. Then the people in charge arrested Jesus because they insult the humility of Jesus, saying he is the king of the Jews.
75 He was asked what was the chief mission of Jesus Christ. He said:
From ancient time to even today Catholicism is love, that one word "love". Under the central theory is that we must save our souls to go to heaven. Love God, love people. Mainly saving the soul. Save the soul say we can go to heaven.
76 He was asked who Moses was. He said:
He say, rescues the Israelis to escape from Egypt. So because at the time the Israelis were slaves in Egypt and God arranged him to save his people from Egypt. Then taking the Israelis to a fortunate land. Then God want to show his greatness so he used like a … and opened the Red Sea. So then until then the Israelis went across the Red Sea, the water came back again so the Egyptian army was stopped. God showed his power to protect the Israelis, protect the people who would love him and believe in him.
77 He was asked who John the Baptist was. He said:
He was before Jesus Christ. He baptised Jesus.
78 He was then asked, what might be seen to be an ambiguous question: "Do you know when Jesus Christ was born?". There was apparently a pause, in which the Tribunal asked for an answer. The somewhat non-responsive answer was given as follows:
Jesus said those people who did not see me but believe in me are blessed. So I didn't get into those details. So I believe in Jesus that is my Lord but I didn't get into details like when he was born, things like that.
79 The Tribunal put to him the following:
Mr [male appellant], Christians around the world believe that Jesus Christ was born on 25 December, Can you please tell me why you don't know that?
(I leave aside the question of the differences in calendars over time and between groups of Christians.)
80 The first appellant then said something which would indicate that he thought (not unreasonably) that the Tribunal had been asking for the year, not the day and month. The following exchange then took place:
The Interpreter: You are asking me which year, not the date?
[Tribunal]: No, I asked you when Jesus Christ was born, Mr [male appellant]. That means the date?
[Appellant's representative]: Can I interject. With respect, Tribunal, I also understood you meaning the year.
[Tribunal]: You can make your submissions at the end, Mr Dobbie.
[Appellant's representative]: Yes, I am just noting that for the record.
[Tribunal]: I would ask you to wait to make your submissions at the end and that if you wish to interject that you obtain the leave of the Tribunal, thank you.
The Interpreter: Everybody knows that but I thought you were asking me which year. I really didn't know.
[Tribunal]: Mr [male appellant], at the beginning of the hearing I asked you that if there was something that you didn't understand that you should bring that to my attention. If there is a question that is ambiguous or you don't understand, ask me. Do you understand that?
Interpreter: Okay.
81 The questioning then proceeded: "Where was Jesus born?" The following exchange took place:
The Interpreter: In a town called Bylong
[Tribunal]: Can you tell me why you don't know that Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem according to the Bible?
The Interpreter: When you translate into Chinese it is like Bylong. It is like that, just a similar pronunciation.
82 There followed some questions about the crucifixion. He was asked: "When was Jesus crucified?" During the answer being given he was cut off. The following exchanges took place:
[Tribunal]: When was Jesus crucified?
The Interpreter: When?
[Tribunal]: When was Jesus Christ crucified?
The Interpreter: When … charged him……
[Tribunal]: What does Easter Friday represent to Christians?
The Interpreter: Easter
[Tribunal]: Easter Friday?
The Interpreter: He did, Jesus died, he was crucified on Friday and he resurrected after three days. I think that anything to do with Easter. Easter is about Jesus conquering death, conquering evil. He conquered the evil which means that because Jesus Christ sacrificed we will be saved because Jesus took over all the sin that were committed by us. God sees Jesus suffering so he redeemed the, all the sin from all the people.
83 It is plain from the answer that the first appellant knew that Jesus, in Christian belief, rose from the dead after three days (which, given issues of interpreting, could be understood as "on the third day"), by reference to the crucifixion on Friday. Nevertheless the Tribunal asked the following:
Tell me what Easter Sunday represents for Christians?
84 The following confused exchange follows (in the context of the first appellant stating that Jesus was crucified on Friday and was resurrected after three days):
The Interpreter: Sunday?
[Tribunal]: Easter Sunday?
The Interpreter: I am not sure about your question.
[Tribunal]: What don't you understand?
The Interpreter: So for us Sunday is a day for hearing the mass and worship God.
[Tribunal]: But Easter Sunday is a very special day for Christians. What does Easter Sunday represent. Mr [male appellant], Please answer my question?
The Interpreter: Easter Sunday. I am not sure about your question. What has Sunday got to do with Easter because Sunday for us is the day, Sunday is the day that we worship God. So I do know that on Sundays we don't work, we should commit ourselves to worshipping God. But Easter Sunday I don't think I have heard about Easter Sunday.
85 The Tribunal next asked about the content of the New Testament. The following exchange occurred
[Tribunal]: Tell me some of the names of the books of the New Testament in the Bible?
The Interpreter: New Testament mainly talks about after Jesus was born that he suffered until his death in order to save the human being.
[Tribunal] Mr [male appellant], I didn't ask that question. I asked you name some of the books of the New Testament please?
The Interpreter: Okay, so the old Testament there are books like Exodus and so on but the New Testament mainly talks about Jesus' life. The New Testament talks about after Jesus was born and all the miracles he performed and how he teached people. It talks about how he …. How devil pestered him. Then in the end is the book. Revelations. It talks about how things will be at the end of the world.
86 He was asked what happened at a Catholic mass? The following answer was given.
So the main significance of the mass is to commemorate Jesus, his suffering to death. The priest that celebrating holy body, for example the bread is just a bread, after the priest bless it it becomes the holy body and holy blood. So when the priest lift up the holy body and holy blood we all repent. So when we partake of the holy body we can't have sin and before partaking we have to have an empty stomach for one hour. After partaking the holy body which blesses the soul. Human body itself cannot resist evil. We have to rely on holy body which blesses soul, we able to resist the evil.
87 He was asked to recite the ten commandments and in substance complied.
88 He was asked what the Immaculate Conception of Christian belief was. He gave the following answer:
That the Holy Mother's conception. That the angel pass a message to Holy Mother that you will be pregnant. She said, I'm not married, how can I be. The angel said what the God wants to happen it will be done. Then she said I will follow God's idea. Then she is pregnant with Jesus. So after Jesus was born she was still a virgin. So everyone else had the original sin but Holy Mother does not have the original sin.
89 He was then asked a question, one would have thought, of some difficulty:
Why are there no women priests in the Roman Catholic church?
90 There followed the following exchange in which the first appellant appeared to make the best of dealing with this difficult question:
The Interpreter: Only nun. But priests are all men but priest, you can't get married because God said you can't serve money and God. God has said you server money or God. So we now serve God. You can't get married. So the Roman Catholic priests are not married.
[Tribunal]: Mr [male appellant], that doesn't answer my questions. I know that all the priests are in the Catholic church are men but I want to know why?
The Interpreter: I don't understand the question. It has always been like this.
[Tribunal]: All the priests in the Roman Catholic Church are men. There are no women priests. My question is a simple question. Why are the no women priests in the Roman Catholic church? Could you please answer my question?
The Interpreter: As far as I know there are women in Catholic church who are virgin, like nuns. Like Theresa. She loves … she is a holy woman, she is a female. There are nuns in Catholic Church, they are virgins for the rest of their life. They become saints.
91 He was then asked for the Catholic Church's position on homosexuality. He answered: "They are against it". He was asked "why". He answered:
Because it is against the ethics of Catholicism. It against the number 6 commandment, that is the carry out evil deeds. The Catholic Church love ….. my priest tells me some ……… was burned out because of such things. The sixth commandment, even between husband and wife, that they have restriction. It can not go out of control. So homosexuality is in breach of the sixth commandment.
92 He was then asked for the Catholic Church's position on birth control. The following exchange took place.
[Tribunal]: What is the Roman Catholic Church's position on birth control?
The Interpreter: You can't do it. Because each child is the gift from God and is God's intention. So it's sacred.
[Tribunal]: So even the rhythm procedure is improper according to the Roman Catholics, is that right?
The Interpreter: But in our church that, we do, this from these safety periods. But if there is a child then we must keep it because that's God's intention. That is a blessing from God.
93 The questioning on religious matters there ended. It is important to appreciate the degree to which apparently knowledgeable answers were given, to sometimes not straightforward questions. The primary judge described the tone of this questioning as bizarre. In places it was; but I accept that if a Tribunal is to test a person's assertion as to adherence to a religion such a process (however idiosyncratic in a particular case it may appear) is open to the Tribunal if the Tribunal thinks it may be of assistance. It is the way this material was selectively used, to which I will come, that is most troubling.
94 The Tribunal then asked as to the frequency of church attendance in Australia.
95 The Tribunal put to the first appellant that the first statement given (see [28] and [29] above) was so lacking in detail as to be implausible.
96 Another matter of implausibility put to him was that if he and his family had been persecuted he would not have waited until 1999 to flee. The Tribunal said:
…It would seem to me implausible that you would have waited until July 1999 before finally leaving the PRC if you had a fear of persecution for such a long time?
97 There was no direct answer to this in two expressions by the first appellant. The Tribunal then said the following which raises the question as to its understanding of the role of the hearing:
Mr [appellant's name], I made it very clear at the beginning of the hearing that I had read all the documents in the Tribunal's files and the department's files. The purpose of the hearing is not for you to repeat what you have said previously. The purpose of the hearing is for you to answer my questions and for me to clarify matters which need to be clarified. I have asked you a simple question now two times and giving you a third opportunity and the last opportunity. Can you please tell me why you waited so long after the persecution began in the PRC before you finally left because to me it is implausible that you would wait that long?
98 The first appellant then said that he did not want to flee alone and was waiting for the opportunity to leave with his family.
99 The questions shortly thereafter proceeded to the date of his wife's adopted grandfather's arrest. The following exchange took place:
[Tribunal]: Mr [male appellant], in the first statement accompanying your protection visa application it says your adopted grandfather, Mr Fu, was released in 1980. He went back to his home town, he was arrested again for six months. In which year was he arrested on the second occasion?
The Interpreter: Also in 1980. After - because after he got home he started mass again. He has got the convictions that he wants to serve God again.
[Tribunal]: Excuse me. When I ask you a question, that is a simple question, I prefer that you answer that question. If I need other information I will you ask about other additional information. You also claim in your first statement that the parents of your wife were imprisoned for two months. In which year were they imprisoned?
The Interpreter: The parents of my wife?
[Tribunal]: Yes?
The Interpreter: Sorry, what was that question?
[Tribunal]: In which year were they imprisoned?
The Interpreter: Same year.
100 The questioning then was directed to the identity of the church he attended in China. Again there are some blunt statements by the Tribunal about the perceived lack of direct answers.
101 Later the Tribunal referred to what it perceived as the late addition of a matter in the supplementary statement filed for the Tribunal hearing. The new matter was the assertion that in 1995 the female appellant was forced to have an abortion of her second child. The Tribunal challenged the male appellant about this:
GThere is nothing about the claim in her original protection visa application which was lodged several weeks after your arrival in Australia. You therefore had ample opportunity to present that claim and I also note that the adviser was the same adviser that you had at the time of protection visa application was made and therefore it would seem to me to be a recent invention?
102 The response was:
No. It's the truth. Because when I was lodging the original application I thought what I said in the statement should be enough, should meet the criteria. So it was not later imagined, it was the truth. After my wife had been forced abortion, his fingernail was scrape into triangle shape.
103 It should be appreciated that it was only when the second child was born in Australia, after the original application and before the Tribunal hearing, that this issue became relevant to a new sur place claim based on the one child policy.
104 The second appellant was then called in. She was questioned as to the date of her grandfather's re-arrest. She was not questioned, as her husband was, about her religious knowledge.
105 Shortly after the hearing the solicitors acting for the appellants wrote to the Tribunal, complaining about the hearing and requesting that the Tribunal member disqualify himself, in the following terms:
The applicants wish to record their concern at the way in which the hearing of the matter was conducted. On numerous occasions the Tribunal forcefully asserted that the evidence of the applicants was implausible, and that aspects of their evidence was recent invention. This was done in such a way as to create the impression that these were not the provisional views of the Member.
Further, on occasion, the Member asked questions which were ambiguous and then was highly critical of the applicant for failing to provide the answer the Member believed would have been appropriate. This gave the clear impression that the Member was simply asking the questions to justify a conclusion he had already formed.
Again, on occasion, the Member asked question which were open ended (such as "would you like to comment" and "please explain") but was then highly critical of the applicant for answering in more than a single sentence. This gave the impression that the Member had closed his mind to the evidence of the applicant. On occasions the Member would deride answers given by the applicant with inappropriate, emotive, responses such as "I don't care". This gave the impression that Member meant just that.
It is the respectful submission of the applicants that the above matters, when taken together, had the effect of overbearing and intimidating the applicants and that it would have created that impression in the fair-minded lay observer. In these circumstances, the applicants request the Member to disqualify himself from determining their application for reasons of the appearance of bias (see Refugee Review Tribunal Ex Parte H (2001) 75 ALJR 982 at [31]).
106 The request was refused.
107 The solicitors then provided four pages of material "in reply to issues raised during the hearing". The letter contains a full and carefully expressed body of material about matters taken up critically by the Tribunal.