Is it an item that you took into account when you were coming up with your discount?---It is an item which appears in my filtered sheet and it appears because I filtered for the word counterclaim and I did that because it was a proposed counterclaim. There is no cross claim or counterclaim in these proceedings and if there had been that would have needed to be the subject of a separate costs order if the costs of the counterclaim were to be part of the costs of the proceedings. That's my understanding of the - - -
So a proposed - sorry, discussion about a proposed counterclaim, your position is that that's not caught by an indemnity costs order?---I believe it would be, that was why I conducted this and I've referred to counterclaim - -
Sorry, it would be within the ambit of an indemnity costs order or it wouldn't be?---No, Your Honour it wouldn't.
It wouldn't be?---No, not as costs of the proceedings unless there was a - - -
So somebody contemplating whether they will or won't bring a counterclaim you say is not contemplated or within the ambit of an indemnity costs order?---Again this is rather like the question of when you call a witness or you bring someone from overseas and you don't call them. It's the very grey area. So that would be a forensic task that taxation may tease out. But as I said all these filters previously were indicative only of the sorts of things which may affect my percentage.
So you think it would be unreasonable for them to be allowed any money at all in respect to contemplating a counterclaim within the confines of indemnity costs order?---It would be arguably the case that would occur before a taxing officer and again there could be a discretion exercised that the taxing officer in the circumstances might consider it was recoverable.
I guess what I'm asking (sic) what your opinion is. Do you think it's reasonable or unreasonable?---It's more likely to be unreasonable.
Unreasonable, all right?---More likely. And that item probably would have been part of the filtering that I did for the word strategy, which is again an important one and - - -
MR CARMICHAEL: Before we come that?---Yes, before we come to that I probably should not go to that extent at this point, yes.
Is your answer to His Honour's question about a counterclaim and whether it is reasonable or not reasonable for a party subject to a claim to have regard to a counterclaim as an indemnifiable entitlement. Is that answer qualified in any respect by the relevance of the facts
- by the facts of the possible counterclaim?---Well as the counterclaim has not been filed and is not part of the documents in my brief I can't say that.
But if the facts of the counterclaim it becomes clear arose from subject matter that was already pleaded in the litigation, would that fact be relevant to the answer to the question asked by His Honour which is whether it would be relevant?---It could have relevance, yes.
And it would have relevance because the subject matter of the counterclaim being subject matter already in the litigation would be a fact lending substance to the reasonableness of the claim for indemnity - for attendances, even in relation to a possible counterclaim?---Yes, but could I go further saying these are part of the subtleties that inform my 68 per cent. I have endeavoured to not go too far south and to - - -
Where is south, forgive me?---South is 65, 50, 40 whatever...."