11. The first suggestion of an insurance on the life of R. J. Carter was made as early as February 1959, when a man named Byrne, a consultant for the Society, recommended in the course of a discussion with the two partners and the firm's accountant J. P. Cullen, that R. J. Carter should take out with the Society a "keyman" policy on his life. Carter said that if ever that were done the firm would have to pay the premiums because the amount of money they required (scil. by means of a loan for which the policy would be security) would be large, and he would not be able to afford the premiums. In June 1959 R. J. Carter as "Governing Director" of the firm conducted negotiations for a loan from a company called Hastings Deering (Queensland) Pty. Ltd., on the footing that policies could be taken out on the respective lives of M. E. Carter and Cullen as well as himself, the policies to be "paid for by Carter Bros. and assigned to Carter Bros.". These negotiations having fallen through, the suggestion for a policy on R. J. Carter's life was made in the proposals that were placed before Carapark ; and when that company agreed to make the desired loan R. J. Carter increased the amount of the insurance to the high figure for which the policy was in fact issued - a much larger figure than was necessary for Carapark's purposes - in order, as he told Cullen, that in the event of anything happening to him the proceeds of the policy should be available for the protection of other creditors of the firm and to enable the business to be carried on. Moreover it is clear, not only from the documents that were executed in relation to the loan but also from Cullen's evidence, that before the policy was actually issued M. E. Carter was aware of and consenting to the taking out of the policy as a step in what both the partners and their staff recognized as a partnership transaction. In M. E. Carter's presence, for instance, R. J. Carter told Cullen that the insurance company wished to televise the presentation of the policy, and that he had declined on the ground that some creditors (scil. of the firm) might consider the amount of the insurance as unnecessarily large and the premiums too expensive "for the business". A week later, Cullen mentioned in the presence of both partners that someone had said that "the premiums would be so large on the amount of the policy that they would be too great for the firm to manage", and R. J. Carter, in the presence of M. E. Carter, told Cullen that his reply should be "that I have taken out this policy on behalf of the business to protect the creditors so (that) in the event of anything happening to me the business can be carried on and they will be paid". When later the question arose between Cullen and himself as to how the premiums should be charged, he drew a distinction between the subject policy and four others for 10,000 pounds. "They are mine", he said to Cullen, referring to the four policies ; and he added : "The reason why I took four separate policies was that when I had arranged other insurance to cover the business I would assign each of these four policies to each of my four children". On another occasion, in March 1960, according to evidence given by a Mr. Solomon, who was the assistant manager of Hastings Deering (Queensland) Pty. Ltd., someone in a conversation at which M. E. Carter was present questioned how a man could afford the premiums on a policy for half a million pounds, and R. J. Carter replied "that he was not paying the premiums, his partnership was, and that they were for the purposes of the partnership". Another witness, a Mr. Wood, who was a creditor of the firm in 1960 gave evidence of "discussions with R. J. Carter in which the latter mentioned the policy, describing it as having been taken out "for Carter Brothers". (at p166)