The Evidence of Ms Long, Ms Anderson, Mr Farmer and Mr Wongawol
22 Evidence was given by four members of the claimant group, namely, Lena Long, Roxanne Anderson, Darren Farmer and Robert Wongawol. Much of their evidence was uncontentious and need only be referred to briefly.
23 Ms Long was born in the 1940s in the bush at Well 7 on the Canning Stock Route. Ms Anderson was born in the bush in 1968 at Barwidgee near Lake Maitland, south east of Wiluna. Mr Farmer was born in January 1970. His mother was from the Glenayle station area and his father was from Irril, which is a rock hole in the east of the application area. Mr Wongawol was born in June 1971. His father, Forky Wongawol, was from around Lorna Glen or Matuwa, Wongawol, Windidda Earaheedy and Granite Peak, all to the south of Birriliburu #3 application area. His mother came from Carnegie, to the east of his father's country. There is no dispute that each of the witnesses has a connection with parts of the application areas.
24 It was not in contention that the Birriliburu People who lived on country hunted and used the resources of the land for food and shelter. For instance, Ms Long spent her early years wandering in the bush with her parents. They lived in wiltjas made of sticks and they hunted kangaroo and emu. They dug the ground searching for goannas and bardi or witchetty grubs, and wild plants. Her grandfather made shields and spears from timber gathered from the country.
25 There was also no dispute that it was customary for Aboriginal groups to exchange gifts of spears or boomerangs made from materials taken from the country to cement cordial relations between peoples. Mr Farmer explained the custom as follows:
[Y]ou've got a lot of different language groups and different regions. You've got the Putjiarra, you've got the Mantijiljarra, you've got Kartujarra, you know, all the different language groups. One going into - Putjiarra might go into a Mantijiljarra area, therefore they've got to take - before they enter that area they've got to take some gifts as a way of I suppose opening up that door for them to - you know, when you give them that spear to that other one - to the Mantijiljarra person, that Mantijiljarra person will then give something in exchange, but at the same time will give more than that. He'll be saying, "Well, now you're right, you can come into my country." And that as long as you come under my - our rules, this is the way we do things and what not, you know.
26 The witnesses explained how they acquired knowledge of the laws and customs governing Birriliburu society. Their knowledge came from old people, particularly grandparents, parents and uncles and aunts. For instance, Mr Farmer was taught by an old knowledgeable man, Billy Patch. Mr Farmer told the Court how Mr Patch was a mentor to him.
DARREN FARMER: … we went out - you know, we learnt about - and that part of our country out bush, you know, associating with the community as a whole and understanding about the community group as a whole, and how we fit in and what sort of - what sets of laws and rights we need to understand and we need to know about as we're getting older, and responsibility for our country and responsibility to family and the community at large, you know.
MR BLOWES: And did you spend any time with him out on any of the country that you're connected with?
DARREN FARMER: Yes.
MR BLOWES: What sort of […] opportunity did you have to spend time with him out on country that you're connected with?
DARREN FARMER: Yes, we went out bush or camping at different times. Even as kids we used - they used to take us out bush, but as we got older we went through law and things like that and they - we - they took us out again pretty much around in the same areas but we could see the country differently as to when we was kids growing up, you know, because we've been told then that a new different set of rules and responsibilities that come with us with going through law that requires we practise for looking after our country.
27 Mr Farmer went through the law at Jigalong when he was about 16 or 17. Since then he has been involved in law matters in many and various places including Jigalong, Parrngurr, Parnwood, Wylung, (Gilgar), Bidyadanga, Wangkatjungka and Yandeyarra. Ms Anderson told how she learned the dreamtime stories from her extended family around the campfire as they were travelling. Mr Wongawol was also taught by Mr Patch.
28 Again, there was no dispute that Ms Long, Ms Anderson, Mr Farmer and Mr Wongawol were knowledgeable people about the laws and customs of the Birriliburu People. Their words on transcript reflect only part of the cogency of their evidence. In each case, the way in which they responded to questions displayed a deep, ingrained, genuine and natural understanding of the laws and customs of their people. Particularly when it came to some of the evidence yet to be referred to about what they are entitled to do on their country, they displayed an apparent bewilderment at questions which they thought had answers so obvious that it seemed difficult for them to know why the questions were being asked. This naïve bemusement made their evidence that much more compelling than the mere words on the pages of transcript.
29 Mr Wongawol explained that Tjukurrpa, or dreamtime, provides the stories about how the country was created. He explained:
[T]he Tjukurrpa … it was put there for us, … it's been created by we call Tjapanyura. … he put us on this earth here and he told us it was the - look after this place, … he created Tjukurrpa, all them sort of things, beings, and yes, just so we follow that. …
… we've got Tjukurrpa going right through the - all around, through Birriliburu.
… we've got the Two Goanna Mans. They call them Wati Kutjara, Two Goanna Man, they wander around everywhere and they leave their - wherever they've been, you know they leave some things there. That's a sacred site we call where they were sitting down or something or where they went and digging things when they was on their travelling, following the - following the Seven Sisters around.
30 The dreaming song lines start outside the application areas, go within it, through it and beyond it, connecting people of the region to the same laws and customs.
31 Mr Farmer described Tjukurrpa thus:
It's got things to do with ceremony, it's got things to do with day to day activities, it's got things to do about how we function as a society. We've got rules about not only how we interact and function as a community, but we've got rules for looking after country. White fellas they've got their environmental policies about country and looking after country and we've got our cultural rules about how we look after country and how we see country, you know. And there are things like that. And we've got all these different sets of laws that have been handed down through generation to generation, but also that's coming back from Dreamtime, you know.
32 The Tjukurrpa has rules about whom a person may marry by reference to skin groups. Ms Long gave evidence thus:
MR BLOWES: … [T]hose rules about skin and those words about skin and who - you know, which skin you're going to be if you've got a particular matter, where do those rules come from?
LENA LONG: My ancestors I suppose, old people before me.
… They're not new rules. That's been going on and on through the ages.
… Dreamtiming Tjukurrpa, yes.
MR BLOWES: So what sort of reasons is that important, is the Dreamtime, the Tjukurrpa important? Got anything to do with those skin rules you were talking about?
LENA LONG: … They've been going through before my time through the ages that my - like old people tell me that I was born a karimarra because my mother is a milangka. That went through - right through - back long time before my mother even knew, even my grandmother.
MR BLOWES: … And do those skin rules they have, they tell you which person you can marry and all that kind of thing?
LENA LONG: Yes.
33 Similarly, the skin rules apply throughout the region beyond the application areas.
34 The witnesses spoke of their relationship with their country, or ngurra, under their laws and customs. Mr Farmer explained:
… when we're talking about ownership over a particular area we say we can identify a person or particular groups of people as owners for that country, but we don't say "owner', we say "ngurarritja". Ngurarritja is still the traditional owner for their country, but that's - that's the way we see it.
…
MR BLOWES: Now, when you're thinking about ngurarritja and the English word "owner", in your mind do you understand them to be exactly the same or are they ---
DARREN FARMER: They're the same.
35 In cross-examination Mr Farmer clarified the meaning of ngurarritja thus:
MR QUINLAN: You said to Mr Blowes when he asked you about that English word "owner" and "own", and you said that people have been using it more recently.
DARREN FARMER: Yes, traditional owners.
MR QUINLAN: Yes. Was that something that's been started to be used since - was that something that started to be used after Mr P took you through the Martu area?
DARREN FARMER: No, that's been used all the time. That - if I can explain it this way: when we're talking about traditional owners, as I said we talked about - we identify ourself with this fella might be - we might say well, I'm the ngurarritja, we the ngurarritja. We the owner for this ngurra. And that's the way we've always been. It's always been like that. But the word "traditional owner" has been used more recently because of this kind of environment.
MR QUINLAN: Yes.
DARREN FARMER: That's all - that's the only way I can explain it to you.
MR QUINLAN: Yes. So, am I right that that word, the traditional owner word, wasn't the way that it was explained to you using that word with Mr P?
DARREN FARMER: No, it wasn't that way. We're ngurarritja.
MR QUINLAN: Yes. He used the language word that meant - - -
DARREN FARMER: Yes.
MR QUINLAN: - - - that you had the particular responsibility for a particular area?
DARREN FARMER: Yes.
36 When asked what ngurarritja can do on their country, Mr Farmer said in examination in chief:
DARREN FARMER: … If we want to do something there on country, whatever it is then we can pretty much as traditional owner or as ngurarritja we can say yes, we can do that. We follow all those principles and at the end of the day we'll get a - to say yes or no whether we want to do it. There's nothing stopping us from doing what we want to do on country, nothing from a cultural context.
37 And when asked about what is included in the country, he said:
[W]e look at country not only what's on top and what's there, but also what's on the ground - what's on the - underneath the ground. That's - we see that - what's in that area and we identify that area and what's inside that area, either on top or underneath, we own that. We - we have the right to speak for that, you know. And what we'll do with that, either what's on top or on the bottom, we can make a decision about what we're going to do and we will - there's nothing stopping us from doing what we've got to do on country.
38 Mr Farmer said that the trees are, and whatever grows on the country is, part of the country. And so with the animals and other things that live on and under the ground. He said, "we are the owners of that". Water in soaks is also part of the country. Mr Farmer said:
In some places you've got to go down further, you know a good distance down, but most - most of the time they're pretty close up. But the point of - the thing behind that is that if a - whatever resource or something that might be sitting on top or - and is still going down underground, we still consider that - again we still consider that to be ours. We're the owner of that, whether that be water or whether that be other resources, minerals or whatever because it's still part of our cultural society as such [sic] as the spiritual and cultural connections and involvement.
39 Mr Farmer was asked about making decisions for mining on the country. He responded:
You know, we - again we'll get a - in the first instance we identify the ngurarritja for that area, whoever that mining interest might be. We'll find out who the traditional owners are, then we'll bring them all to get the traditional owners along with those other people that have both direct and indirect cultural responsibilities and custodial responsibilities with them. And collectively together we can sit down and make a decision about either yes or no.
MR BLOWES: Alright. So what about this possibility, that Martu people [Aboriginal people of the Western Desert] or, say, you became aware that there were was some - a lot of minerals on a certain place on your country, Martu way could you do anything about that if you wanted to - if you wanted to go and get those minerals as a Martu person on your country?
DARREN FARMER: If it's not - if it's not close to any significant site or cultural sites or whatever, if it's clear and if it's a long way from anything like that, so important from a cultural point of view, yes, we can go and get it. But if it's close to an important site or something like that, then we've got to come back and find - get the others and bring them and sit down and talk to them together, you know.
40 Mr Farmer said that under the traditional laws and customs the Birriliburu People could operate a sandalwood harvesting business or a tourist facility, a vineyard, or a market garden on their country. He explained:
… if you're talking about commercial activities, then yes, it can happen.
… there's nothing stopping us from doing what we want on our country, as long as we follow those cultural protocols and the right people are involved and are involved in part of the process, you know.
41 Ms Long similarly said that everything on the ngurra belonged to the people including plants, animals, and water in the soaks. She said:
It belong to the land and we can hunt in that ngurra country. So it belong to us. We live there.
42 Ms Long said that if a mining company wanted to mine on the country then under the laws and customs of the Birriliburu People, the company should speak to the elders because, "we're owners of the land" and therefore it is up to the elders to decide yes or no.
43 Mr Wongawol also said that if a mining company wanted to mine it was up to the traditional owners to say yes or no, "[b]ecause they're the owner, traditional owner for that little area".
44 Mr Wongawol explained what was included in country as follows:
ROBERT WONGAWOL: The hills, the trees, the creeks, the rockholes, all them sort of things.
MR BLOWES: When you look at your country and you see - is there - do you see anything that doesn't belong to the traditional owners?
ROBERT WONGAWOL: That doesn't belong to them?
MR BLOWES: Mmm.
ROBERT WONGAWOL: No, it's all belong to them. Nothing doesn't belong to them.
45 Then there was specific evidence of commercial activities involving the sale of resources on the country. Ms Anderson said that in about 1988 she sold emu chicks to an emu farm in the area. Ms Long collected pop mulga seeds and sold them to mining companies for regeneration of used mine areas. Ms Long also told the Court how her people hunted kangaroos in order to sell the skins. Wooden articles made from trees on the country were sold to tourists. Ms Long said that her cousin, Tony Pattison, sold spears to tourists. Ms Long said that her cousin harvested sandalwood from his country in the application area. It was not clear on the evidence as a whole whether this enterprise was conducted by non-indigenous people who employed Birriliburu People to do the work. However, as Mr Farmer said, the Birriliburu People have the right under traditional laws and customs to take the sandalwood themselves.