THE LEGAL PRACTITIONER: If I could address you about it. It's a matter of, as far as I know, agreement and history and record, public record, that the wife was a director of this company. That is not a matter of dispute, though the wife chooses not to file material in this Court deposing to any of these matters. So we only assert what we understand to be acknowledged rather than what is on the record as acknowledged. The fact that she received director's fees therefore doesn't surprise us and wouldn't surprise anybody one would have thought. The real issue before you is not about whether she was a director, it's about whether she owned shares in the company which is not, I gather, in dispute. But moreover, when did she dispose of those shares? We say that the material filed on behalf of the husband demonstrates, and you should be satisfied for the purpose of the orders you're being asked to make today, that she disposed of those shares after the parties separated. We say that it's not more than a prima facie establishment of that proposition for these reasons.
You not only have read the material that indicates that she signed it in her married name when she wasn't married and wasn't using that name, but it was stamped in 2004 after the parties separated, that in the intervening two-year period the company lodged with ASIC annual returns describing her as shareholder and that Mr Barrack's affidavit indicates that she told him that - that the majority shareholder, the wife's sister, told him during 2004 that the wife was a shareholder.
HIS HONOUR: Let me just ask you this, as I did Mr A, and it seems a pity we have to go back over all this territory again. What in the end is your client's claim about this matter, because if I assume all of those things in his favour he [may] or may not get some mileage as far as credit in the final hearing is concerned, but at the end of the day, if you're not applying to set aside the transaction - and that's what Mr A clearly repeated to me twice - we're left with a situation where there has been a transaction which occurred, on your evidence you would suggest, some time in September 2004 whereby an asset that the wife owned at that time was disposed of, apparently for $5000 which was paid to her.
THE LEGAL PRACTITIONER: Can I stop you there. Clearly if the transaction took place in 2004 it wasn't for a consideration of $5000.
HIS HONOUR: I thought it was common ground that that's what the consideration would be.
THE LEGAL PRACTITIONER: There is an assertion that in 2002 the company paid through the wife's bank account to relatives - both the wife and her sister - some money which is asserted to be part of the 5000 consideration. There is no evidence that any money changed hands in 2004 when we say the transfer took place.
HIS HONOUR: As I understand this, complicated by the fact that the documents don't apparently accord with what you suggest, the documents suggest that the transfer was for a consideration of $5000.
THE LEGAL PRACTITIONER: We dispute that.
HIS HONOUR: I'm saying that's what the transaction purports to be. Let's assume that the shares were in fact worth a lot more than that. Where does that get you?
THE LEGAL PRACTITIONER: Your Honour, firstly, the transfer having taken place after the parties separated the Court is confronted with a number of possibilities. We would be, depending on the value or the undervaluing of those shares, entitled, with respect, to assert that it's a Townsend situation.
HIS HONOUR: But the Townsend situation gets you an add-back of $5000.
THE LEGAL PRACTITIONER: With respect, it doesn't if the Court is satisfied upon the hearing of the matter that the consideration expressed on the transfer bears no relationship to the actual value of the shares, nor the consideration that ultimately will pass between the transferor and the transferee. If I give away for a nominal insignificant amount of money an asset which is of substantial value, then it is still possible to assert an equitable interest in that asset.
HIS HONOUR: Unless of course you transfer it to a close relative and the presumption of advancement applies.
THE LEGAL PRACITIONER: We say there's no presumption of advancement between a sister and a sister. Furthermore, your Honour, we say the evidence will show - and at this point in time your Honour is entitled to infer on a prima facie basis - that the transfer has been concocted for the purposes of removing those assets - - -
HIS HONOUR: Yes, but that's an irrelevant consideration. The only consideration, given that you've said you're not going to apply to set aside the transaction, is what value the wife may have as a resource.
THE LEGAL PRACTITIONER: With respect, we say it's property - - -
HIS HONOUR: That's what Mr A told me. So he was wrong, was he?
THE LEGAL PRACTITIONER: He was.
HIS HONOUR: I see. Why is he coming down and presenting this matter in circumstances where I spent the best part of an hour going through this when he wasn't right about what he was putting to me?
THE LEGAL PRACTITIONER: Your Honour, on the last occasion when the matter was before you I had spoken to Mr C and it was my understanding, and I think his, that the matter was to [be] put over to a date for the company to be able to appear.
HIS HONOUR: This is a matter in which the parties have already spent, as they told me on the last occasion - I've forgotten the amount involved, I think it was $50,000 or thereabouts per person - we're not even at the stage of drawing of documents and the amount involved is asserted on both sides to be relatively small. All I can see is we're going to spend a lot of time and a lot of money in dealing with interlocutory questions and finally getting rid of any money that may have been available to look after the children - - -
THE LEGAL PRACTITIONER: I trust your Honour is not addressing those comments to our side.
HIS HONOUR: I'm addressing them to the fact that this is the second time it's before the Court. When it was before me last time I endeavoured to determine what the nature of the dispute was so that we could save any further reiteration of a whole range of things which seemed to be directed to determining what it is the parties were fighting about. It appears now that when I tried to do that I was given information which was not correct.
THE LEGAL PRACTITIONER: Unfortunately that's so, your Honour. This is property, we say, it is property that - - -
HIS HONOUR: So you're saying it's property that's part of the proceedings.
THE LEGAL PRACTITIONER: Yes, your Honour. We say that it will either be added back on a Townsend basis or the wife will be deemed to have - the wife's sister will be deemed to hold those shares in trust for the wife on the basis that this was essentially a gift without consideration.
THE LEGAL PRACTITIONER: You can't do that. Your argument has to be surely this if it's going to be anything, and I want to make sure that I understand it exactly, that we don't go through this yet again and again. If the transaction occurred after separation, then the best you're going to get out of it is that the transaction generated a trust in favour of the wife and that she has an equitable interest in the shares. Isn't that so?
THE LEGAL PRACTITIONER: Well - - -
HIS HONOUR: If you're not applying to set aside the transaction, either the physical amount that was received for the transaction, the consideration that it was either nominally paid or was paid, depending on which construction it's based on, is added back, or alternatively, the property that exists to be dealt with to be added back is the wife's equitable interest by way of what you would describe as a constructed, as opposed to constructive, or resulting trust as a result of the transaction.
THE LEGAL PRACTITIONER: No, with respect, your Honour, we say we're not confined to those alternatives. The value of the shares can be taken into account on a Townsend basis as notional property, the value being the real value, not the nominated value on the share transfer. We say that it's not the case that the husband can be defeated from adducing evidence of the true value of those shares simply because the wife chose to transfer those to - - -
HIS HONOUR: I think your application at the moment is premature. It may mean that the trial has to be adjourned in the middle of it if you are successful in establishing the premise upon which it's based. I do not believe that you have at this point established that premise.
THE LEGAL PRACTITIONER: Your Honour, the relevant history of this matter is that the wife - - -
HIS HONOUR: I know what the relevant history is. The point I'm making is this: the determination of whether or not this has to be added back depends upon someone making findings about the credit of the parties, about the evidence that there is to support it and making a determination about whether the transfer occurred, as is asserted by the wife, prior to the marriage and after the relationship began, or, as you're asserting apparently, that it occurred after the parties had separated. That is an issue I cannot resolve on an interim or interlocutory basis. Upon that depends the rest of it because if in fact the wife's allegation is found to be so, then the rest of your arguments fall flat. The cost of accommodating this, the cost of trespassing on a third party's privacy is not a matter that really is to be undertaken until that's determined.
So the trial may begin, the issue will be determined and if it's necessary there will be an adjournment and no doubt the valuations will occur.
THE LEGAL PRACTITIONER: With respect, we submit that that's not an appropriate course of action. The rules - - -
HIS HONOUR: It may not be an appropriate course of action in your opinion, but I am managing the matter and that's the way I see it as occurring. If you want to appeal my determination, you can do so.
THE LEGAL PRACTITIONER: Your Honour didn't permit me to address you in relation to the relevant history that hasn't been raised.
HIS HONOUR: If there are any other matters that you want to raise, then you should [do] so.
THE LEGAL PRACTITIONER: Thank you. The wife has failed not only to file material in relation to this transaction, both on the last occasion and in response to this application, the wife has failed to respond to requests for particulars of the transaction. That's annexure C to the husband's affidavit; annexures B and C to the first affidavit that I've referred to sworn on 11 May, or filed on 11 May, and annexure D to the affidavit filed on 22 July. Ms B, the transferee, swore an affidavit in the proceedings before you in relation to the subpoena and she did not address that issue at all. In fact she said:
I understand the husband ... (reads) ... this matter in the wife's case.
She had not filed any affidavit material, she assiduously avoided dealing with the share transfer in that affidavit and in any responsive material to date; she hasn't filed anything. Your Honour is left only with the husband's sworn evidence in this regard.
HIS HONOUR: But the husband's sworn evidence is nothing more than pointing to a series of facts and saying, "These do not add up to the transaction occurring when it's asserted that it did".